OKRs For Scaling Startup Founders w/ Meena Sangar | talonX

00:00
Meena Sangar:
I'd like all of you founders to remember that it's not about process for the sake of process, it's really about building sustainable, people, focused, revenue driven businesses.

00:18
Anshika Arora:
Today we're talking all about metrics in your business. We discuss OKRs, what they are, how to use them and how they work together with your KPIs. We're honoured to have Meena on the podcast today who's an OKR coach, Fractional Chief People Officer and founder of Talonx. She has years of experience working with different startups and scale ups across industries to tailor strategies and guidelines that adapt to a company's consistently changing needs and metrics. I'm Anshika, I'm the founder of Eternity, a CRM designed to streamline the wedding industry for both couples and businesses. And I'm so excited to be hosting the LAB podcast today. Let's get into it. Thank you so much, Mina for joining us on today's episode of the BAE Lab podcast. I'm so excited to have you on to be talking all things OKRs and KPIs.

01:05
Anshika Arora:
Like we said before, it's such an important topic for founders, but it's definitely one that gets overlooked a lot of the time. So let's get straight into the deep end. What are the key differences between OKRs and KPIs?

01:16
Meena Sangar:
Great question. So let's start with KPIs key performance indicators. Key performance indicators. Think of them as the health of your organisation. They're static, they are business as usual. So they measure very specific goals. Now let's go into my favourite topic which is OKRs, objectives and key results. They focus on achieving ambitious strategic goals. So you almost think, oh, KPIs are right there. And then you've got your key objectives that change and pivot and they're very dynamic and they are really focused on innovation and strategic growth.

01:58
Anshika Arora:
Fine. And why would you say both of them are maybe equally as important for startups and scale ups?

02:04
Meena Sangar:
Yes, I think they're definitely equally important because you need to have the health of the business. You need to understand, you know, what are our long term KPIs. But you need to have strategic growth, you need to have focus on innovation and you need to be able to pivot quickly. If something's not working, try something different to reach those KPIs. So they're both as important as each other.

02:27
Anshika Arora:
So I'll say,  So, Meena, for anyone listening, would you mind just explaining tangible examples of a KPI, maybe one that's used in the short term? Or a long term of a business against what an OKR looks like.

02:39
Meena Sangar:
So an example of a KPI in a startup would be something like mrr, which is monthly recurring revenue, which would obviously go into ar, which will be your annual recurring revenue. Now a key objective could be something like increase customer retention and you could have something like reduce your churn rate, you'll have a percentage by it and it would be something like starting a loyalty programme.

03:06
Anshika Arora:
So would you say that your OKRs drive your KPIs and make sure you're achieving them correctly?

03:12
Meena Sangar:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, I would say that.

03:15
Anshika Arora:
Amazing. And at what stage do you think startups should consider OKRs. Is it ever too early or too late perhaps?

03:21
Meena Sangar:
Good question, Anshika. Is it ever too early to introduce okr? Goal setting when early stage startup, it could be said you don't want to burden yourself with additional processes just for the sake of process and you know, you're very much focused on the startup, client retention, client onboarding and bringing in that revenue. Having said that, when you're building a startup and you're going to go into that scale up side of things, it's a good idea to start introducing OKRs in very slowly. Start introducing the idea in and actually start bringing into the DNA of your organisation so that, you know, it becomes something that you start naturally doing. Just, you know, on that point, when it comes to OKRs, it's not one of the things we're starting okr, it's going to be fantastic and it's going to work because it doesn't work like that.

04:27
Meena Sangar:
OKR is going to understanding what OKRs are, what's going to work for that particular organisation, that process takes a little bit of time. So yes, in an early stage startup, don't overwhelm yourself with too many processes and goal setting, but start introducing the idea slowly when you feel it's the right time for you. All startups are different. Everybody, every startup had this unique makeup. But what I would say is when you start trying to introduce something like this in the, at the later stage, people, oh my God, what is this? What do you know, what are we doing now? But if it becomes part of who you are, and I would say part of your startup DNA, then start introducing it, but don't make it everything that you do.

05:12
Anshika Arora:
Yeah, absolutely. Because like you said, there's so many things that's on a founder's plate, right? And it's really about being picky with those things that's going to bring you the right results at different times. So without overwhelming yourself, but equally you need to start with the early steps. So actually on that note, for any founders who are looking to introduce OKRs business for the first time, so like you said, they may be in that kind of slight scale up stage or very comfortable with their KPIs and how they've been performing. What advice would you give to them?

05:42
Meena Sangar:
Start slow. Understand what OKRs are. Understand. And this is why so many people say we started OKRs, we're abandoning it. It doesn't work. But if you think about, you know, what OKRs are, why, what's your why? Why do you think you know, why are you introducing okrs in the first place? And I'll answer that for all you founders out there, it does drive a drive clarity and focus. It's going to drive alignment. It's measurable outcomes. It helps with your agility and motivates and encourages people to think beyond just what's in front of them. So, you know, my advice is learn about them first. And learning about them isn't picking up a book and saying, here's a book, everybody. Because I have come across people who will just be given a book and say, learn OKRS. No, it's a social exercise.

06:38
Meena Sangar:
It involves everybody and it's about sharing ideas and understanding that it's, everybody is involved.

06:45
Anshika Arora:
And so how would you say that they shouldn't over complicate the process because like you said, many founders can think, okay, okay, is that overwhelming or we've tried them and then we've had to let go of them and stop doing them. Because if you want to have everyone involved, that obviously adds to the company culture and the motivation side of things. But how do you as founders perhaps build it out strategically so that it's not overly complex for your team to understand or be a part of?

07:12
Meena Sangar:
That's a great question. I would say take your time to understand the fundamentals of, you know, going back to your why. And, and I would like to say at this point, OKRs is not a standalone process. There's a lot that happens before it. And that is, you know, you could sort of combine it. What I do is I combine it into a whole process of OKRs is a part of it, an ongoing part of it. And what I would say is, I think, you know, I said before, if it's not written, it's not real. And if you don't know where you're going, how are you going to get there. So I think it's really important if you just start with North Star. What is the company's North Star? What is the what's the startup's mission? What's the vision, what's the value, what's the purpose?

08:02
Meena Sangar:
Why are we here? So if you haven't gone through that process first, then trying to bring OKRs  in, you don't even know who you are at that time. I know that you want to make money, you know, you've got to get that revenue and you've got to get your clients, then you got to do the great work that you're doing. But really, OKRs kind of comes down the line a bit. Establish your North Star, establish your, you know, your mission, your vision, your values, your purpose. And from there, as you've got a good idea of who you are and what you're about and what, why you do what you're doing, then you start bringing the OKRs in. So if you're going to, if you, if you don't go through that process, then you're kind of starting in the middle.

08:47
Meena Sangar:
And I don't think it works as well if you haven't established that first. So know who you are, know where you're going, and then start the OKR process.

08:56
Anshika Arora:
Absolutely. And like you said, I think so many founders will initially start off with a North Star perhaps, and then you might pivot and things may change and you actually forget to reset that North Star and then you're just moving around direction in this. Right. And I love what you've mentioned around OKRs are really a team effort and they need involvement from everyone. So how important would you say okrs are when it comes to setting the team culture?

09:19
Meena Sangar:
Team culture is everything when it comes to OKRs. First of all, it's having a culture that drives innovation and allows people the psychological safety to have those ideas and to fail. Because, you know, the whole point of when you're experimenting and you know when you're driving innovation is you're trying lots of different things. So as leaders, what can a leader do is to create psychological safety in their teams, but also to create accountability in their team and giving people the space to understand that, you know, see, KPIs don't have that space. You, you've got to hit those KPIs, they're set. This is why I love OKR so much, is it, it's about driving accountability and aligning everybody.

10:10
Meena Sangar:
So the culture is very, a culture of transparency and that includes who we are how we do things, what we pay, you know what, what our finances is because sometimes the finances of a company goes up, goes down. What are the challenges, what are the opportunities? So creating a culture of transparency, creating a culture of like, you know, supportive and you know what if we, if you fail, you learn and then you move forward.

10:45
Amardeep Parmar:
Hello. Hello. Quick interruption to let you know about BAE HQ. We're the community for high growth British Asian entrepreneurs, operators and investors. And you can join completely free at thebaehq.com/join. There you get our CEO pillars, sets, content, events and opportunities. Direct your inbox every week so you can get involved and it can help you to further your business and your career. We also have a free startup course called BAE Startup Foundations where if you think about starting a business someday or at the early stages, it gives you all that information to help you hit the ground running and to thrive in this new world. Back to the show.

11:24
Anshika Arora:
When it comes to companies setting OKRs, what are some of the most common Pitfalls that you find?

11:28
Meena Sangar:
Starting too soon, starting when you're not ready, starting where you don't have a culture of transparency. And it's not that psychological safety where people think, look, we're driving forward to a common goal and that usually comes from the leadership. So I would say, you know, one of the biggest things I would say is people just not understanding what OKRs are. They understand the types of OKRs. You know, for example, you have roof shots, that's a hundred percent. You know, you've got to hit a roof shot 100%. But then you have the moonshine, that's a stretch goal. And then you've got balancing OKRs, you've got milestone OKR. There's so many different types. But as I said, every startup is unique. So first of all it's that education piece. So you know, learn what it is, learn how it works, learn when it doesn't work.

12:28
Meena Sangar:
What are the derailers, you know, and the derailers are usually if you just not tracking, you're not measuring. Because OKRs are no good if not tracking and measuring. And it's not about tracking and measuring. You know, micromanagement is not that, but you have a great dashboard. Dashboard or use, you know, a particular tool. But really it's about setting the scene, understanding what it is first. Don't I have people, like I said, get a book, I learned OKRs, let's go and do it. And also know that in your first OKR cycles it may not completely work. It might take you 1/4 or 2/4 to kind of get the hang of it, but it's not a magic pill and it's not going to suddenly drive innovation, but it's a team effort and as I said, it's a social exercise.

13:20
Anshika Arora:
And actually, on that note, so companies and startups will be possibly tracking their KPIs each week or each month. What is the suggested frequency to be tracking OKRs?

13:31
Meena Sangar:
I would say you can track OKRs on a weekly basis, maybe sort of checking in with people, but you have a. You should have an OKR tracker that you can build into Google Notes or into Excel or use a tool. And those tools are how you measure on a daily basis. Because everybody. The good thing about OKR is, and the way that you should be tracking them is that everybody can see at any point in time. So a really good dashboard that leaders and teams can cheque on a daily basis, but you'll have a weekly cheque in to see how things are going, what's working well and what do you need to change.

14:15
Anshika Arora:
Yeah, I absolutely love how OKRs really do sound like they bring the colour behind the KPIs, because KPIs often can just be numbers that you're tracking and you're working towards without really understanding how is this achieving that end goal. And OKRs really seem to bridge that gap, which I think a lot of founders often have the vision of the North Star and exactly what they're aiming for. But ensuring that you translate into that, in that into the rest of the team is. Is often quite a struggle for founders. Have you found that as well?

14:43
Meena Sangar:
Absolutely. And I think OKR should be called okri, because actually this is what where people get a bit confused. Okay. You've got your key objective and then you've got the key result where you're measuring what matters. Okay, now what? Well, actually, there's an I, and that's the initiative, that's the doing part and that is. And that's where you're giving the accountability to your team to say, okay, we set the key objectives, we looked at the key results, but now we're going to. It's up to you to do the initiative.

15:15
Anshika Arora:
Yeah.

15:16
Meena Sangar:
What's going to drive the, the key results that's going to help us get the key objectives. So that accountability, and that's where the space to create and innovate is given, not to the leadership team, but to the people who are driving the key objectives.

15:34
Anshika Arora:
And so for founders who are listening today, what is one thing you'd want them to remember about OKRs.

15:39
Meena Sangar:
I'd like all of you founders to remember that it's not about process for the sake of process. It's really about building sustainable, people, focused, revenue driven businesses and leave the process behind. But when you're ready, make sure that you're using the OKR goal setting framework in the way it's meant to be used. But don't make it so overarching that you're just tracking just for the sake of tracking. Just play around with it a little bit. You know, OKRs can be quite sexy though. Just, you know, just have fun with it and know that it's not something that's going to work straight away. It's, you know, as I said before, all startups are unique. Make it work for you in the unique way that worked for you.

16:32
Anshika Arora:
Amazing. Thank you so much, Meena, for coming on today and shining some light on OKRs and KPIs. Like I said, KPIs are definitely probably more well known than OKRs, but they're definitely needed for that North Star direction setting. So thank you so much. As always with the BAE podcasts, we ask our guests three other questions. One of them, which is of the Asians that you know in Britain doing incredible pieces of work. Who are three that you think our audience should check out?

16:59
Meena Sangar:
I think you should check out Cien Solon. She's a founder of Launch Lemonade and she's really making AI accessible for all and she does free sessions on building AI agents. I definitely think you should check out Raj Rajendram. He's a founder on a mission to revolutionise service charges and that's saving tenants money and council's money. And also I met this incredible guy called Vedant Dudraj. He's a co founder of Inspirational Adventures. Now he's very young, but he really knows how to create founding team mentality.

17:45
Anshika Arora:
Amazing. We'll definitely check them out. And how can people find out more about you and your company?

17:50
Meena Sangar:
You can go onto my LinkedIn profile. I'm always posting on LinkedIn, but also www.talonx.co.uk.

18:00
Anshika Arora:
Amazing. Thank you. And what can our audience do to help you?

18:04
Meena Sangar:
Well, I'm actually creating a programme called Vision to Velocity and that is really going through with early stage founders, especially underrepresented founders, whether it be female of colour, LGBTQ and because a lot of people come into business and it's about understanding, hey, how do you define your North Star? You know how what is strategy? How do I get, you know, how do I translate strategy into action? So look out for more details on vision to Velocity.

18:36
Anshika Arora:
Amazing. Looking forward to that and any final words from you?

18:40
Meena Sangar:
Happy New Year, Everybody. Let's go smash 2025. This is going to be a great year. I've got a really good feeling about it. And gotta say, I love working with startups. They're all unique, they're exciting, they're innovative, and I'm here to support you in any way that I can.

18:57
Amardeep Parmar:
Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. See you next time. 

‍