Tackling Workspace Mental Health Through Tech After Recovering From Crisis w/ Asim Amin l Plumm

00:00
Asim Amin:
There is a big problem, a fundamental problem, not around my peers, but this is, I truly believe we're sitting in a mental health, not just crisis, but epidemic. So to be able to solve that problem, me as a therapist, how many people can I see? Like 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100. So I had to apply technology and I had to do it at scale and again using technology. I think technology has to play a part because we more than 8 billion people on this planet, there just aren't enough therapists and they will never be. Goal is to subsidise mental health so that no one has to think about budget when it comes to mental health, because it should be a basic, fundamental human right.

00:42
Amardeep Parmar:
Today's guest is Asim Amin,  founder and CEO of Plumm . It started off as a mental health platform, but it's evolved into HR tech platform and has been going from strength to strength. What's great about Asim's story is that there was a lot of adversity, especially in the early days, and he was trying to work out where he belonged, what was home to him. When he moved to London, this is what felt like home for him and to have been able to really thrive. And for him it seemed really dark days himself. And we talk about that. So trigger warning for anybody about mental health.

01:14
Amardeep Parmar:
Be careful his episode, but it's a really important discussion and he gets really vulnerable and you can really see why he's dedicated his life and his mission to what he's doing today and then how to automate that commercial reality so there's not just making an impact, but also making profit and being able to sustain and grow a large team. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. I'm Amar from the BAE HQ. So great to have you on today. And obviously we've switched roles now, Right? So I've been in your podcast before and your podcast is all about immigrants and founders and that mentality. Can you tell us, like that story of you growing up and how being an immigrant has played such a big part of your life?

01:51
Asim Amin:
So my immigrant journey started actually not in the UK, but in Dubai. So my mom and dad moved to Dubai when they were like 18, 20. My dad was 18, mom was 20, and I was born India because my mom wanted to have me with close to her mother. So I was born India, but then I was shipped to Dubai when I was two months old. I don't know if you know, I was actually surprised when I came here. A lot of people didn't understand the how the nationalization system works in the Middle east and Dubai. So you can live there all your life, but you're never part of the system, you never become like a UAE national. So I always felt like an immigrant and I didn't understand that while I was growing up, just oblivious to life.

02:38
Asim Amin:
But as I got older, I was just like, oh, shit. I really had, like an identity crisis. I was like, am I Indian? But I don't live india and I don't really understand the culture nuances and so on. Am I Emirati? But. But I'm not because I've got an Indian passport. So there was all this always this dilemma and then. Yeah, and then the obvious thing was for me to tackle that identity crisis, to move to a country where I could form a proper identity, where I could be embedded in the system. And then, you know, I was looking at different countries and then UK was just at the top of my list and I'm here.

03:19
Amardeep Parmar:
So right now, UK is getting so much crap from so many different places. Right. And we've. I've seen your posts about this. The thing we talked about before, about there's so many people saying, UK is a good place to be. Is it not a good place to be? And you just said that you picked it because you think it's a place you could belong. How's that experience been actually moving here? Do you feel like you do belong here and it does feel more like home?

03:38
Asim Amin:
You know, it's so interesting. I've been in the UK for about five years now. I've never felt more at peace or at home. It's so interesting because I grew up in Dubai and Dubai is beautiful, by the way. Like, I mean, beautiful people. I mean, my mom and dad still lives in Dubai, so. So still, you know, I mean, I do have some sort of obviously belonging there, but here, I mean, things have just drastically changed for me and I. And I feel obviously the. The system, and it's one of those as well, when in the nicest possible way, if you have something, you perhaps don't appreciate it as much, the novelty also starts wearing off really quickly.

04:18
Asim Amin:
So for me, as soon as I came here, I was like, oh, my God, like, freedom of speech, human rights, you know, the opportunities were endless and the startup ecosystem, because obviously that's the space I'm in. So much more mature compared to so many other countries. I know people compare, people complain about the weather, but you've got four seasons. It's just brilliant because I. I lived in a country which it was just hot or bloody hot. Yeah. So. And then just the people. I think for me, the people more than anything else. I think Dubai obviously is a huge melting pot, but it's. But London is quite unique. It's just, you know, people from all walks of life, different cultures and religious backgrounds and so on.

05:00
Asim Amin:
It's just, I think if one wants to really make a difference, I think London or the UK really gives you that. That incubation and things can drastically change. So for me, when I was trying to look at different avenues or different, you know, geographies to move the top, really the top two was the US or the UK. I didn't look at Australia and all these other countries, but I'm like, okay, either America or the UK. I actually went to New York first. I did an accelerator in New York, and then I came to London, and as soon as I landed, I was just like, oh, my God, like, okay, this is it. Like, I'm. I'm. I'm gonna do whatever it takes. I'm gonna. I'm gonna make it work or I'm gonna die trying. And, yeah, the rest is history.

05:47
Amardeep Parmar:
So there's also such a connection as well, between the immigrant mentality and the entrepreneurial mentality, because it's a big risk going to another country. You've got to make a new network. You've got to integrate so many changes that happen to your life. Right. And you must have. Obviously, when you said you went to accelerator in New York, you were already thinking about entrepreneurship at this stage. Right. And I believe in, like, you did something in your early years, too. You tell us a bit about where that journey and the entrepreneurial mindset came from started.

06:14
Asim Amin:
I think it started because, I mean, we. I come from humble backgrounds. I mean, we didn't have money. Money was a big issue at home. That was one problem. Second, I was just shit at school. Like, I mean, my teachers, including my parents, thought I would. I would never make anything in life. So I just thought, oh, my God, like. And I dropped out quite early from school as well. So I'm like, okay, who's going to give me a job? So I have to try and do something by myself. And I really wanted to make a lot of money because money was a big problem at home. So I started my first business when I was 17.

06:45
Asim Amin:
Somehow I convinced my uncle at that time because I was playing all these online games, and I convinced him to invest, and then he became my 50% equity shareholder at that time. It was interesting because that's when I made my first deck, my financial model and so on. Yeah. And then since then I've just dabbled into so many different businesses. Food and beverage, digital marketing. I was in the property sector for a very long time as well. Always wanted to do something within the mental health space because my mom is a therapist. My mom also had her own fair share of mental ill health, but I never did anything within the space because I was absolutely ashamed that my mom was a therapist. There's a lot of stigma around mental health, especially coming from a Asian Indian background. The stigma is even more so.

07:29
Asim Amin:
You don't talk about it. Yeah. But it wasn't up until 2016 when I had my own fair share of mental ill health. As I mentioned, I was in the property sector for a very long time. I invested a lot of money, lost a lot of money and I went into really dark place. I had suicidal thoughts. I just wanted to end. I just want this life. I just wanted the life to end. I believe I was fortunate that I had my mom's experience. So I started taking care of my own mental health. And when I came out of that headspace, I really wanted to get into a line of business that would be bigger than me, bigger than my mom, even.

08:02
Asim Amin:
So started looking at the whole telemedicine, telehealth space and I saw that the mental health space was not as robust as we see it today. Started developing the platform and then consciously moved to the UK. And again it was between the US and the UK. Consciously moved out is because of two reasons. You know, the whole immigrant aspect. We spoke about the identity crisis, obviously, but. But the commercial aspect was the startup ecosystem in the Middle East. Dubai is great, but it's still far behind the UK. So the startup ecosystem here is just phenomenal. And secondly, the sigma around mental health. So again, when you look at, not just my household, but if you look at the whole Middle east, the Asian community, there's so much more stigma around mental health.

08:48
Asim Amin:
I'm like, okay, I need to be in a place where mental health and the conversation around mental health is that much more accepted.

08:53
Amardeep Parmar:
Yeah.

08:53
Asim Amin:
So, yeah, so done a lot of things, but I think now I've come to, yeah, a good place. A lot of failures have taught me to. I mean, this is the most successful business I've ever had and I think it's off the back of everything that I've gone through.

09:08
Amardeep Parmar:
So just rewinding back to that state where things weren't going so well. Right. Where you know how to have this transition. Obviously, you said like your mum was a therapist, so that obviously helps you there as well. But I think there's obviously going to be people listening right now who are in that place right now, right where they are struggling. For whatever reason they're struggling. And you obviously took that and transformed that into a strength, into going about how to fix this problem for other people. What advice do you have for people at that stage of their lives right now where maybe they are a bit unsure and they're trying to think about, is entrepreneurship or starting their own thing the right path? When can that can kind of come in?

09:44
Amardeep Parmar:
Do they have to get stability first or what steps should they next take?

09:48
Asim Amin:
I don't think there's an actual playbook. Everyone's different. And I mean, if the one piece of advice I would give to people is the change starts from you. And it's quite interesting, when you look at therapy, or if you just look at help, or if you look at opportunities, when you take that first step, the universe starts working in your favour. So really, I mean, asking yourself, how badly do you want change? So for me, when I said I had suicidal thoughts, there were three days in a row I stood in the balcony and pictured my fall. And the problem is I'm too scared of heights. So it was very contradictory. I'm like, oh, my God, this is so scary. And then I pictured my fall. How am I going to fall and will I die midair or how will I hit the ground?

10:39
Asim Amin:
And so on the second day, I came to the balcony thinking about those thoughts, but it was even more vivid because now the second day, the third day was even more vivid. So then I told myself, I'm like, okay, either I take action and I just take my life, or I do something about it, because I can't come standing on the balcony on the fourth day. So really, for me, the pain was so much. As much as I wanted to pre there, like, if you really are in a place and you don't have to, hopefully no one has to go through that. But if you're in a place where you really want change, ask yourself, do you really want change?

11:17
Asim Amin:
Because a lot of people want to start a business and entrepreneurship is not for everyone and it should not be as well, and that's okay. But if you really want change, no matter at what stage of life you're at, really ask yourself, do you really want change? Because all of us want more money and want to be an entrepreneur and, I don't know, one of better things in life, but do you really want it? Because if you really wanted, you will take action. You owe it to yourself. Things are not going to change. I mean, this podcast, I'm sitting in front of you now because I took an action, you came on my part and hence why I'm on your pod. I've been following you for quite some time now. But that was my lever because I took action.

11:56
Asim Amin:
So, and it's also interesting, you know, when you do something with the right intent, you do attract the right people in the right circumstances. Obviously things take time, but taking action, taking that first step, you will be pleasantly surprised. The support system out there, like people just want to help. People actually generally want to help.

12:13
Amardeep Parmar:
Yeah, absolutely. But people, when you say about taking action as well, take the action that's more healthy rather than the other action. You had the two choices that, right. So if somebody is listening in that state, like, make sure you get the help.

12:24
Amardeep Parmar:
Right.

12:24
Amardeep Parmar:
And as you said, organisations such as yourself and like we mentioned Kanu as well, speak health, there's loads of organisations out there right now who are trying to help people in their situations. And once you decide, okay, I'm going to take action, I'm going to start making this thing happen. So obviously you said your mum was a therapist, right? So you could have gone down the route of, okay, I'm going to learn how to become therapists myself, I'm going to help other people in that way. Or you could go down the other route where you can try and do this at scale and what made you decide, okay, rather than doing it that way, the way that your mom did it, I'm going to try and build a business about this and go that route instead?

12:56
Asim Amin:
That's a very good question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that question. Okay, so. And I'm also glad you asked me that question. So when I came out of the headspace, first of all, I didn't go into therapy with my mother. I think that's the last thing anyone should do, speak to a third person. But when I came out of that headspace, I started speaking to a lot of people around me, friends, peers. A lot of them were mental. And what I found was a lot of them were somehow going through the same headspace that I was. Nobody spoke to me about having suicidal thoughts or you know, self harm or whatever that may be. But the stress and anxiety, like I could feel it.

13:34
Asim Amin:
And now that I was, now that I came out of it, I could feel it even more I don't know if that makes sense, but I was like, oh, my God, like..

13:41
Amardeep Parmar:
You're more aware of it, right?

13:42
Asim Amin:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then I was like, okay, just because they haven't vocalised, you know, that doesn't mean that maybe they're not also thinking what I was thinking just a couple of weeks, couple of months ago. And I was like, wow, this is like a. This is like a systemic problem. And especially, you know, in men. Oh, boys don't cry. You have to man up and so on. And if you look at the suicide rates now, I mean, majority of them are men. It's so, it's so sad. And I'm like, okay, well, I could go into therapist route, but the first problem was, oh, my God, I was just shit at studying. So I'm like, okay, this is going to be very difficult.

14:14
Asim Amin:
But the second thing also, I just thought, okay, I mean, there is a big problem, fundamental problem, not around my peers, but this is. I truly believe we're sitting in a, you know, mental health, not just crisis, but epidemic. So to be able to solve that problem, me as a therapist, how many people can I see? Like, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100. So I had to apply technology and I had to do it at scale. Only then can you. And, you know, I truly believe charities don't change the world. It's social enterprises. You need to have revenue, you need to raise money to actually make some sort of a dent in this big, massive problem that we have. And, yeah, that was why I took the other route.

14:55
Amardeep Parmar:
So you obviously then, well, you're between the UK and the us, right? So you said you went on to accelerator and then you ended up settling here. And when you're thinking about, okay, some people are at the problem, you can see there's a big problem here. How do you start thinking about how am I going to solve this? What am I actually going to do to help these people?

15:11
Asim Amin:
Talking about the big problem, I think you asked me this before, maybe I didn't answer it properly, but I've seen, especially the last couple of months, especially from entrepreneurs talking a lot of shit about the UK. And I think, okay, so first, no country is perfect, no individual is perfect, no system is perfect. However, I mean, my reality is. And my, and my perspective is because of my reality, my lived experience. So the country that I'm from, and we've got teams in other developing countries, South Africa and so on, and where I was raised and to where I am today, I can only see positives. It's just too many positives. It's just so much opportunities. Can it better? Of course it can better. But I see there's a lot of, there's just a lot of negativity.

16:01
Asim Amin:
You know, a lot of people are vocalising that, how the UK is crap and the taxes are high and you should just leave. Just leave. Like, I've seen so many comments. The, the end call to action is just leave. It's like run away. But fundamentally, if you really put it, you know, the grand scheme of things, we are the minority, like the positive minority, the entire globe. If you just, if you just go out there and going on holiday in a country is different versus living in a country, being a part of a system. So I would rather be, you know, part of the solution rather than just talking about the problem like, how does that help anyone? Yeah, so I think that's really important. And now on that note, I've actually digressed and I've lost my train of thought. What was your question?

16:41
Amardeep Parmar:
So, you know, there's a big problem in terms of mental health and people not talking about it.

16:45
Asim Amin:
Yeah.

16:46
Amardeep Parmar:
How do you think about what solution should I build to actually help those people? What platform is needed?

16:51
Asim Amin:
Yeah, yeah, it's quite tough. And when you look at mental health as well, like one size doesn't fit all. I mean, every individual is. I mean, if you look at the spectrum, you know, there's a. We're all on some sort of a spectrum, you know, like, I mean, there's red, amber, green and you can, I mean, there's a lot of labels out there as well now these days. And I think when we first started were somehow naive and we said, okay, so mental health, everyone has stress and anxiety and everyone is kind of the same and okay, let's deal with this big problem at hand. But now what I've started to see is people are breaking that in silos and I think that's a great thing.

17:28
Asim Amin:
So if you look at teen health or if you look at self harm, if you look at ADHD and so on. So I think that is where perhaps the solution is to be singular, focused and again, using technology. I think technology has to play a part because we more than 8 billion people on this planet, there just aren't enough therapists and they will never be. We started so AI, you know, people have been talking, I mean, the CHATGPT changed the world, but machine learning has been there for past, God knows, 20 years. But it's great that ChatGPT has changed the world.

18:04
Asim Amin:
When we first started talking to our partners and telling them, listen, we'll be, we'll bring in AI to help support and to help scale and to reduce costs, there was a huge pushback, like, oh my God, this is not going to happen. But now the conversation is slightly changing. I think our relationship with AI is slightly changing as well. The conversational LLMs that we have around. So I think maybe it's a two prong approach if we break things down. If people start focusing on a singular problem or singular problem that you're solving.

18:38
Amardeep Parmar:
Amongst that big mental health space.

18:40
Asim Amin:
Yeah, so we are not solving a singular problem. So we're still in a space where we cater to a lot of different aspects. But if somebody was starting now, I would advise them to focus on a singular problem. Our journey is slightly different. We came into this space before COVID and that was, I think the best time because Covid, from all the negatives that it has brought, there has been some positives. For us, the silver lining was the demand and the conversation around mental health that just exploded and it continues to rise. So, so that was us at that stage. And what's happened now is that there's just so much noise and there's more talk, less action there.

19:28
Asim Amin:
People are saying, yes, mental health is important and we have to, you know, but nobody's putting money behind it and if you don't put money behind it, things don't move even for us. We, because of that we also now expanded into the HR space. So HR tech, because I was just fed up, you know, no budget, no budget. I'm okay, I'm going to send you. And then again, it was looked at as a good to have and not a must have. And because we're in the workspace, you know, so we've now moved into the HR tech space where we have now subsidised mental health. So we have a different play altogether. But if someone was actually coming into this space, yeah, focus, like a single focus. Pick a niche and just target that niche.

20:08
Asim Amin:
And if that niche is, I don't know, teens, schools, parents, like that's it. But we're in the corporate space and we've got a huge HR platform. Mental health is just subsidised. So if you buy a platform, you just get mental health for free. You don't have to pay for it.

20:23
Amardeep Parmar:
Hello. Hello. Quick introduction to let you know about BAE HQ. We're the community for high growth British Asian entrepreneurs, operators and investors. And you can join completely free@thebaehq.com/ join. There you get our CEO pillars. So that's content, events and opportunities direct to your inbox every week. So you can get involved and it can help you to further your business and your career. We also have a free startup course called BAE Startup Foundations where if you think about starting a business someday or at the early stages, it gives you all that information to help you hit the ground running and to thrive in this new world. Back to the show. And we mentioned there about the frustration, right?

21:05
Amardeep Parmar:
So that's such a big part for so many people is that they start to solve one problem and then as the commercial reality is, as you look at different things, but it must not be easy to make that pivot. You made it sound like, oh yeah, went from this to then going to that, but obviously it's not going to be so easy. Right, so you obviously went through that process and there's two different aspects. Like how is that emotionally for you to try and shift gears and change that, but also the logistics of how you obviously built your team around a specific area and then pivoting into something else. Can you talk about both those aspects of both the emotions for you as a founder to try and tackle a problem and need to expand further and then operationally how you actually do that?

21:42
Asim Amin:
Yeah, I think emotions on both sides, emotion for the pivot, emotion also. Then how do you do it? Because now you have to manage the entire team's emotions as well. Like that also comes on you, I think first, to answer your first question. Yeah, quite emotional because I was, because I felt the pain, because I was, I'm that consumer. And then I've seen that in my family as well. So obviously I have a bias towards the importance of mental health and I started the business so the first six months, really it was just, it was just a fight going back and forth, speaking to companies and telling them like, you cannot cancel the service. Yes, there's a commercial aspect to us, to you, but you cannot cancel the service because you've already been giving the service to your people for one, two, three years.

22:25
Asim Amin:
How can you just take it away? Like, I mean, and mental health, you know, like it's important. And how can you not think twice before paying for a CRM system like HubSpot or Salesforce or whatever. But the human beings behind the CRM system who actually are using the CRM system, you don't really care about them at like how like it didn't compute in my mind soon enough, you know, I, I really told myself, you know, sometimes you have to lose a few battles to win the war. And I also understood the commercial aspect, to be honest, because a lot of people did come around and said, listen, we know it's important. Got enough only, you know, this much money to pay salaries and I'm laying off people. What do I do?

23:04
Asim Amin:
Yeah, like I really don't have money for this benefit or any other benefit. And again, it's just good to have. And yes, we have to pay for HubSpot because if we don't, then we die because how do we operate business? So I mean, when you think commercially as well. Okay. I mean, I'm in business. I mean, if I had to make that choice and if I was dying, perhaps, yeah, all these type of services would just go away first. And so, I mean, so then the decision was made, okay, we have to move from a good to have to a must have. So that was number one second then bringing the team. I think, Yeah, I think we are fortunate also that, I mean, maybe a lot of founders are going to be biased about their team, but. But we have really.

23:47
Asim Amin:
Yeah, I believe, I mean, huge shout out to everyone working for Plumm. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's, you know, when we move too fast and when things move so fast, inevitably, you know, things break. And when I say things break, it's not the processes or the structure or the product, it's the people, because it's the people behind your product. It's the people behind that speed and that momentum. So I actually, you know, and communication is key. Like, I mean, I've always been transparent about everything. The money we have in the bank and the money we don't have in the bank and where we're at and so on. Because, yeah, and I got the team together and I told them, listen, this is where we're at and things just crap and we have to pivot. And the pivot is not just add another service.

24:32
Asim Amin:
The pivot is like we have to move into entire different space. And yeah, I mean it's just going to, yeah, there's no other option. And I know you guys joined a mental health company and now we're moving into HR tech, but mental health will remain at its core. Basically. Also made them understand the problem, like why we're doing this and ultimately what's the goal? The goal is to subsidise mental health so that no one has to think about budget when it comes to mental health, because it should be a basic, fundamental human right. And. And that was, I think, powerful. I spoke to my CTO and the tech team. I said, listen, you know, how difficult will it be to create a HR platform? 30 days. Let's just do a hackathon seven days a week, and, you know, we'll just crack on nine months.

25:14
Asim Amin:
Yeah, I think. I think. I think we're also very naive, and I think it was good to be naive, because if we knew how difficult this entire journey would be, we would have maybe thought otherwise, because it really became a Pandora's box. I mean, we created one feature and then we open up. And we also didn't know the space and mental health was slightly different because when we came in, there was really nothing out there. And were the experts. Like, we could say this is the right thing to do. Obviously we had clinical psychologists and, like, a team of clinicians, but if we said this is the right thing to do and people just followed. But the HR space is quite different. Like, I mean, it's a beast. So. But I'm also fortunate. Like, we're in a very good space now.

25:53
Asim Amin:
I mean, the team is super excited. I mean, we have not only achieved, but overachieved everything that we've been doing. Last quarter has been the biggest quarter we've had since the last three and a half years. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I mean, this is a very fortunate position to be in.

26:08
Amardeep Parmar:
You mentioned about the pivot and where you didn't know from the new space. So you, obviously, you're expert in one area, but now you're getting new area. How did you go about actually understanding that space, making sure that. So obviously HR tech. Is your product even needed in HR tech? How did you figure out how to carve out a niche within this whole new space to make sure you're meeting customer demand?

26:29
Asim Amin:
You know, after you. After you repeatedly do something over and over again. I think you also build, like, an intuition. I mean, you've been doing this pod for so much, dad. Like, like, wow. Like, I don't even know how many times, like, how have you done it? Like, this is something that you and I need to speak about, but you. You just somehow intuitively have that knack. And I think that's what's happened with me as well. Goes back to your previous question. You know, what should people do? I think it's just trying a lot of things over. Over a period of time just allows you to just better at making decisions and so on. So, so that was the first part. The second thing, you know, we also over complicate everything in life.

27:12
Asim Amin:
I think everything from the surface looks like rocket science, but when you start, it's like an onion when you start peeling one layer and the second layer and the third layer and just taking one step at a time. I mean, when we started also, like last year, like after, after the first two or three weeks, we're like, oh, shit. Like this is like, what are we even talking about? We started speaking to a lot of HRDs and whatever and we're like. And we thought, you know, for example, data security, we thought, oh my God, mental health data is like the most prime. We came into this HR space. Like the data on our next level, everything is on next level. And the features that we're building, the processes and every company is different in an industry. Every company is also different. And it's just.

27:51
Asim Amin:
Yeah, it was just. It's madness. But one step at a time. And I think we've. Yeah, we're so, like, our entire team is so much more confident. I'm so much more confident. Our investors are so much more confident now. So I didn't really know, but it's just, yeah, you know, today it's also not very difficult to know anything. I mean, I mean, YouTube university to ChatGPT. ChatGPT has changed everything. Like, I mean, the way we code, we use ChatGPT, the way we research, the way we write content. Like, I mean, AI, like it's. I mean, we're so, we're spoiled for choice at this point in time. As long as you want to actually do it, I think things are simpler after that, once you've made that decision.

28:38
Amardeep Parmar:
The other thing I want to pick out as well, because you beg to bring some of this team along the journey right from that big pivot. And you said about how great they've been. How did you find these people in the first place? How did you pick those people that are willing to come on that journey with you? Because I think you explained quite well about how you got the team to help that transition. You're very transparent with them. You told them the realities. You got their buy in there, but at the same time you needed to get the right people on board in the first place to be able to convince them to do the pivot.

29:06
Asim Amin:
Trial and error. I mean, we have a great team today, but I think about 70% of the team is not the team that started with the business. So As a business grows, you know, some people can, are able to grow with the business, some people are not. And that's okay again, but the show must go on kind of thing. But however, some people, the smaller lot, I do have a few family members working with me as well. So my co founder is actually my first cousin and he was the first person I spoke to. I don't have money and the only person who can actually trust you. I don't have money. And I told him, listen, I'm thinking about this idea. I want to change the world, but I don't have money to pay you. So do you want to come on this journey?

29:49
Asim Amin:
So I mean, who else is going to trust you? It has to be someone in your family or maybe a really close friend. So he's my first cousin. Then I got my sister on board as well. At that time during COVID she had lost her job, you know, redundancies, there were people losing jobs and she was also pregnant. So like bad combo from that. I mean, it's a known fact, you know, no matter how much we sugarcoat it. So I told her, listen, I don't have money to pay you, but at least you can keep your mind busy, you know, so. And then, you know, simultaneously in parallel, you can look for a job. And then I got my other sister as well. She came on a little bit later. I think she was a smarter one.

30:33
Asim Amin:
She was working for oil and gas and I. And this was before our proper venture funding. Yeah, like, man, I need like a. I need a CFO. Like I really need a CFO. And I didn't, I couldn't afford a CFO. So she helped me during that time and I'm like, please, like do double job, whatever. Just like, I need your help. And that helped then transition into her then coming full time. So there are few people, there's a few family members who obviously now still are with me. But my CTO for example, he is not a family member, but he's just. I know we should not be saying this, you know, companies are a family.

31:09
Asim Amin:
But really he, I mean he was the second person who came into the business and for whatever reason, I don't know how, he just trusted me and my madness and he was actually, so he was India, he was supposed to go to America and he never met me in person, but he cancelled that trip and he just decided to, you know, just come on this journey with me. But since then we've had some people who've you see, you build relationships not in the good times, but in the bad times. So the remainder of the 30% people are people who've just seen the ups and downs and all the shit and. Yeah. And they've just remained. And I think it's not. I don't think there's any. Any science behind it. I think it's trial and error.

31:56
Asim Amin:
Now the reality is we've got the best team and it looks nice at, you know, from a facade level, but internally, there's a lot of, like, a lot of work. There's just too much work. And. And at one point, I do remember dropping the ball on the culture aspect, and that was one of the biggest mistakes I've ever done, just because I was so busy. You'll always be busy. My priorities just shifted and I thought, we have a great culture, great team, and everything's, you know, happy sailing, everybody loves each other. We're all, you know, drinking kombucha and singing Kumbaya. But obviously that was not the case. And, yeah, that was. We've gone through some really bad time as well. That could have been like a huge detriment to the entire. To the entire journey.

32:34
Asim Amin:
But then somehow we also then shifted priorities, came back on culture. But for me, now, I think now we're in a privileged position because the company is bigger, the product has become so bigger, we're winning. So things are easier when you're winning. Things are easier when you have cash in the bank. You know, I hope we don't come into that situation again, but really focusing, but also not dropping your ball, because what I did was I dropped the ball when things were good. I dropped the ball on culture when things were good. I just thought, okay, fine, Culture will take care of itself. But I treat culture now in the company as I would treat product, as I would treat a fundraiser. And I think it's a constant effort. And really, as a founder, reminding yourself, ultimately, what is a company?

33:18
Asim Amin:
A company is nothing but a collective of your people. And if your people are not in check, you don't have a company.

33:24
Amardeep Parmar:
Yeah. And you mentioned there's, a while ago, your investors are now happy you got your sister on board to help with the venture funding round. How's that journey been now as well? So obviously choosing to get funding in the first place. And was it the right decision? Was it the wrong decision? And how did you think about that and how your plans for the future?

33:42
Asim Amin:
It's interesting because you see a lot of posts, especially on LinkedIn now saying, oh, don't raise and bootstrapping is the way to go. Whatever. First of all, not every business is a venture investable business. Let's also understand that. So let's also understand who are these people who are saying not to raise. Having said that, I'm also not saying that you, you absolutely have to raise. If you don't have to raise, then don't. For me, when I first started out, I was also in this two minds, should I raise, should I bootstrap? But I fundamentally did not want to create a lifestyle business. I wanted something at scale and especially in the mental health space. Like you just need a lot of support. There's just, it's a huge problem. I mean it's a systemic problem.

34:26
Asim Amin:
Like you really need, like you need huge support and for that you need a lot of money. And so that was a conscious decision from the get go that, okay, we will go through this path. It's not been easy. We've, we've gone, I mean we did angel round and we did angel rounds again. And then we did a private equity and now recently we did a venture round. We're also going to be doing a follow on round in the next couple of months with the same investor. So yeah, for us, I mean it was a conscious decision that we wanted to go through a venture round because we wanted to make a huge dent in the problem that there exists.

35:06
Amardeep Parmar:
And how do you think you got that venture round? Like what do you think is the key selling point that you were able to say to them like, look, we're tacking this problem with the right people for the job and this is the reason why you should back us.

35:17
Asim Amin:
So there was a lot of NOs before I got the YES. I mean, for me, okay, so I've been a salesperson all my life. And for me, rejection comes easier, I think. And I think it also started from school because I just failed, like every single time. I just failed. So for me, failure was second nature. And then I got into sales. So sales from a business aspect, I was selling. I was selling. I sold to my uncle first the idea, then I hired an employee, I sold that idea to that person. And real estate, I was brokerage, I was just selling. So when you're a salesperson 99% of the time it's just failure. It's just no and no. So I think being one with no I think is super important. And I did 100, I think I did 160.

36:11
Asim Amin:
I can't recall the number but around 160 calls to finally get one. Yes. Yeah, we did a few due diligences before that. So people like yeah, okay, you know, sure, send me the deck. Let's go into due diligence. I think five due diligence. But then one, the one only said yes. But yeah, I mean for me it was just, for me it was a numbers game. Also another thing when I was raising I did have some other people, other founders who were also saying how the system is rigged. And I think this is very important for everyone to understand the system is rigged because yeah, it's like a white man system. I know there is obviously stats around it, the BAME community and women led businesses and so on. Yeah, sure. However, I think fundamentally raising is hard even for that white man.

37:04
Asim Amin:
It's just difficult. So that's just one more layer, that's just one more story that you tell yourself every single day that how this world is against you and how difficult it's already difficult do not make it more difficult for you. So initially I was listening to them and I also started getting into the rabbit hole. I'm looking at stats and data and how the disparity and all that but I'm like, oh shit. Like I'm not doing myself any favourite is difficult anyway. Like, like there's no white person who would come to me and say oh this was smooth sailing. Like it's just difficult. So I removed that factor and I just told myself it's very difficult. I've been in sales, it's like a numbers game. I just need to knock as many doors as possible. Finally one will open.

37:44
Asim Amin:
And I also told myself I've gone through so much shit. I didn't come this far to come this far. Yeah, like I like I was just adamant, like I'm going to make it or I'm going to die trying. And also I think the responsibility of the team, that's super important. Being very cognizant of the fact that there's so many children that go to school, their parents work at Plum and they pay for school fees. I know a lot of people who take care of their elderly parents and they get salaries from Plumm. And then we have just over 200 providers and therapists, coaches and therapists on our platform. At least 70% of their full time job or income stream is Plumm. So that was a huge responsibility. I'm like, man, like there's just too many people reliant on Plumm.

38:29
Asim Amin:
Like I have to do this. It has to work.

38:31
Amardeep Parmar:
I think that's an important point, what you said there. Okay, yes, there's biases, yes, the stats can be against people. But if you go into a conversation being like, this person is going to invest me, because the way I look, you're already creating that, like, handicap on yourself, right? Like, you've got to go in with the best intentions, thinking this person's going to invest. And as you said, the reality is that it's not. It's very rare for anybody to get their first investor invest, and usually that's exited founder. It's like there's some kind of massive advantage they have. And it's like what we're trying to do, for example, is like, tackle some of his biases. But on any individual founder level, you have to have that confidence to just go into it.

39:10
Amardeep Parmar:
And if somebody doesn't invest in you because of your race or because of your gender, then you go and prove them wrong, right? But if you go into this thinking, oh, I've got no chance, then you're holding yourself back. You've got to go in and believe in yourself, right? And it's a really difficult mentality, right, because you know, okay, this odds might be stacked against you a little bit more than other people, but it's also, if you believe that you might then ruin, like, sabotage yourself too, right? So we're gonna have to go to the quick fire question soon, but before we get there, I just want to get the. From yourself, like, what are your biggest wins so far? Like, what are you most proud of on this journey?

39:44
Asim Amin:
The team. Definitely the team I think we've created. And I keep saying this to the team every single day. Plumm could be apple, banana, strawberry, doesn't matter. We could be selling whatever, but it's a team. So when you look at, you know, I strongly believe ideas are worthless. Execution is everything. And execution only comes off the back of your team. I mean, I mean, you could be the best executioner in the world, but it doesn't matter, you know, so the power of execution is the power of your team. So I'm super proud of my team. Like, I mean, it's. I mean, I'm so grateful that the team has allowed me now today sit in front of you whilst they're hearing what they're doing.

40:23
Amardeep Parmar:
And you said there's 200 therapists and people on the platform. Do you know how many people you've impacted and how many people's mental health you've been able to make a difference to.

40:31
Asim Amin:
So we do circa 3,000 therapy sessions per month and we've been doing that for a couple of years now. So, yeah, tens of thousands of people every single month and we've had so many instances where we've taken people out from crisis, you know, people had suicidal thoughts and things like that. So yeah, so super, super proud of that.

40:51
Amardeep Parmar:
Also making a huge impact because that team you built is enabling you to make such massive impact. And if like I interview you again in five years time, right, what would you love to say as the answer to that question of the biggest win of like how many people have been able to impact or what difference you've been able to make?

41:06
Asim Amin:
I think the biggest win for me at that time would not be the quantum of people that Plumm has been able to impact, but somehow because we have proved the model works, any HR platform or any SaaS platform can actually provide mental health, subsidised mental health, because a pure SaaS play has high margins. So the model works and hopefully if it's not all the SaaS players in the world, if at least the other HR tech companies, because you're selling to that vertical, which is HR, which is also taking care of mental health. So it's the same buyer, if they're all able to subsidise mental health, just follow suit. I'm, I'm happy to share our playbook and our strategy, but if they all do that, we would have, yeah, we would have made a big difference in the whole world.

41:56
Amardeep Parmar:
Well, hopefully when you come back we can say that you've been able to do that. So quick five questions now because I can see the time ticking away. So first one is who are three British Asians or Asians in Britain you think are doing incredible work and you love to shout them out?

42:09
Asim Amin:
Three Asian, British. I think first one has to be you. And I'm not just saying that because I want your pod. Like I said, I've been watching your journey for quite some time now and I think you're doing a fantastic job. I'm also trying to do something in a very small scale so I'm learning from you. So first shout out to you. Second is Kanu Batra. I actually had her on my pod just yesterday and she's the founder of Speek and she's again, maybe I'm biased because she's also in the mental health space but in self harm and I got to learn her journey and her why she started this business and she's a fantastic person. And last but not the least, Varun. Varun Balsara. He is the co founder of Let's Level Up. So I met Varun in Warwick University.

42:58
Asim Amin:
I remember a couple of years ago. So he was a student there and I gave a talk about entrepreneurship and all that. And since then, I don't know, it was just love at first sight. And I've been advising him on the business that he was working on at that time and now he's moved, he's doing this and he's come a long way. Like I know his journey as well and all the struggles that he's been through and now he's raised funds and he's growing. Yeah. So three of them. Three including you.

43:27
Amardeep Parmar:
So thanks for the shoutout and if people want to find out more about your journey and what, Hey, Plumm's up to, where do they go to?

43:33
Asim Amin:
Sure. So people can find me on LinkedIn. I'm trying to do the LinkedIn game. So Asim Amin:. They can just find me. Plumm is heyplumm.com we couldn't find the domain, just plumm.com so I just added the hey in front. Yeah. And if anybody obviously needs anything from me, they can just drop me a dm.

43:53
Amardeep Parmar:
And is there anything that you need right now that Plumm needs in terms of support?

43:57
Asim Amin:
Good question. The HR space. So any information? So we're just. Because like I said, I mean, we just, we came in naive into the space, so we're just speaking to as many people as we can because we strongly believe we have a great team, we have a great product, we're in a great space and we have a huge aspiration to solve problems. So if people in the space can share their problems and their pain points, that'll be a huge help.

44:21
Amardeep Parmar:
Thanks so much for coming today and sharing your story and we love how vulnerable you got as well. It really makes a difference, I think, for people listening. Have you got any final words?

44:28
Asim Amin:
Yeah, no, I mean, shout out to, you know, all the entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs who are trying to make a difference in this world. I think it's a really, really tough and lonely job. So keep going. And you only fail if you stop. So do not stop.

44:50
Amardeep Parmar:
Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. See you next time. 

‍