Brutal Reality of Building a Profitable Coworking Space w/ Erin Wolfe | Curve Club and Cinni AI

00:00
Erin Wolfe
Gosh, we're gonna be so rich so fast. Like this is crazy. How has no one thought of this before?

00:04
Amardeep Parmar
That's Erin Wolfe, co founder of Cinni AI and Curve Club. She was super optimistic at the start.

00:12
Erin Wolfe
Maybe we learned our lessons and we are gonna become billionaires. We didn't. We're losing so much money, but that's fine. And I remember thinking like just another day living a dream.

00:25
Amardeep Parmar
Curve Club, originally the private members club, the founders was tough work at the start.

00:30
Erin Wolfe
We're so privileged that we get to clean this toilet, make that latte run. That event.

00:36
Amardeep Parmar
By breaking point, they adapted fast.

00:39
Erin Wolfe
We then had to adopt the mentality of just don't die. It finally got profitable, which were like ecstatic about.

00:45
Amardeep Parmar
And now with the same all female co founding team, she built an AI search agent for fashion.

00:51
Erin Wolfe
I think our biggest edge was funnily enough, like the community.

00:53
Amardeep Parmar
You don't want to miss Erin's unfiltered take on the brutal realities of being a first time founder and how the second time she can take all those lessons to make it so much better.

01:08
Erin Wolfe
Growing up, I almost think I was overly ambitious before I could even spell. I really thought I was going to be a doctor.

01:14
Amardeep Parmar
What happened to that?

01:16
Erin Wolfe
What happened to that dream? You know what, I think my whole qualification was purely just watching Grey's Anatomy and House. So no, I don't think I was going to be the doctor.

01:27
Amardeep Parmar
And then what did you end up going into or what path did you start moving towards?

01:31
Erin Wolfe
So when I went to university it was, I'm very grateful. I actually was able to study entrepreneurship and digital on like digital innovation. So during the finals of all of our studies, we actually got a pitch to like a row of like VCs. So if your idea was smart and witty and like not being a doctor, you could get funding, you could drop out of school and build your idea. Or alternatively if your idea was horrific, which they were normally car crashes. Because you're at university and I wouldn't say you're like, you know, peak of your game. They would politely give you some feedback and then you would continue educating yourself.

01:59
Amardeep Parmar
And where did you grow up as well, because obviously people might notice your accent isn't.

02:03
Erin Wolfe
Oh yeah, yeah. So I'm originally from the east coast when I moved from California and I went to USC. Right on. Yeah.

02:10
Amardeep Parmar
So okay, so you had your go at entrepreneurship at university. What did you then do afterwards?

02:14
Erin Wolfe
Basically they really prepare you to like funnel you into. They're like, listen, you want to be an Entrepreneur. Either get after it right now or alternatively just move to the Bay Area, move to Silicon Valley, get a work for a massive corporate for two years. It'll open all the doors, you'll have a nice soft landing and then take the risk because, no offence, your idea is probably going to be like, pretty bad. Like, only you're going to believe in it. You're in your early 20s. I mean, they weren't wrong. Like, I'd say some of the first ideas I ever had were like, pretty bad.

02:41
Amardeep Parmar
You've got to share, share  some now. But you said that.

02:43
Erin Wolfe
I think when we first started, like back at university, like, were. We were constantly getting like free press juices delivered to our sorority. So we used to like empty half them out and then like we would just walk down like the Greek life, like the sorties and frats, and pick up any alcohol, being fine off the ground and just start filling up the rest of the bottles with alcohol, like swishing it all together, being like, this is great. Then were just like trying to sell them.

03:05
Amardeep Parmar
Is this what you pitched to the VCs?

03:07
Erin Wolfe
It really was. The only hiccup was, all of our attraction was to underage students. So we ended up getting in so much trouble. '. Cause were so part of our work. I was like, look at the cash flow. People pay us in cash. And they were like, no. Like, full stop. No. They're like, who are these people? I was like, any student passing by, like, where's your alcohol? I was like, we're finding it on the streets. Like, it was so bad. But were like. I remember looking at my, like, friends being like, God, it's going to be so sick when we're billionaires. Because we made it. No, we didn't make it. So instead I graduated and my first job was working at Oracle. Just slanging software. Yeah.

03:46
Amardeep Parmar
So I guess people don't know this as well. So I used to be an Oracle consultant for Siebel. So the most boring of the most boring software. Were you in Siebel?

03:56
Erin Wolfe
No, I wasn't Siebel. I didn't. Like, the only pillar that didn't work. I was selling Fusion, which was Oracle CRM, which was trying to compete against Salesforce. Plot twist. I don't think they're number one.

04:08
Amardeep Parmar
Because, yeah, I went. Was it sales? Cloud, service. Cloud. This is like a previous life, which I don't talk about anymore because it's not very cool.

04:14
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, no, it's not Club o, baby. We're there for life. But it was like the best off landing. Like, you learned the full tech stock, you learned how to navigate the ecosystem. You learned all the acronyms that turns out are really cringy to say, but they're in my head. But yeah, it was good to like, learn around, like, what. What it could be in a corporate world and how much. I never wanted to do that.

04:37
Amardeep Parmar
How long did you stick around for before next step?

04:40
Erin Wolfe
I really tried to make it to two years. I think I only made it to a year and a half. And I had two friends that they actually, they just graduated from business school. They were starting a startup. They're like, hey, do you want to come on as our first sales hire? I said, yes.

04:52
Amardeep Parmar
And how did that journey go?

04:54
Erin Wolfe
I said, as a lot of like the Bay Area tech companies go, like, everyone's in their early 20s. Like, they are all newly graduates. Like, you're a little arrogant. You're. You. You think you know the world. Why? I have no idea why. Why that you think that you. That you are the one that's going to solve these problems and you're equipped to do it, but love the confidence. We ended up, like, growing from, like, I think when I first started, it was like less than 5 of us all the way up to like, almost like a little over a hundred people, like past series B and like all these things. It was crazy. I remember it was like the wildest ride. It was like only a year and a half. And it was back when, like, deficit was sexy.

05:28
Erin Wolfe
Like, investors would be like, oh, like, how's the business going? We're like, it's great. We're losing so much money, but that's fine. For some reason, I kept reinvesting in you company obviously went under and we, like, I don't know why, were like, quietly blindsided. I think this seems like all the numbers are in the red. Like, all the charts go down. Like, nothing's going up and to the right. And I remember thinking, like, just another day. Live the dream.

05:55
Amardeep Parmar
Is this one is like very revenue obsessed as opposed to profit then?

05:59
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, exactly. It was all about, like, hyper growth. And it was like everyone was just trying to jump on the next big thing. It. This was all it was back in like 2015, 2016. So it was like, it was kind of showing my age now, but like, that's. It was kind of like the wild west, it felt like. And the company that were at, it was trying to like, be like an Airbnb competitor, because they were. Airbnb got Actually rejected from San Francisco for a very small window where it was like illegal for them to do rentals. So the company, the startup that I joined, it was like monthly rentals. Cause that's what the law allowed is only allowed those. So we like were scraping airbnb listings, putting on our website. We weren't asking permission. Like, everything was just like a little too scrappy.

06:40
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. Like, operations were eventually put in place. But like, I don't know why we all thought this was going to be the best business ever.

06:48
Amardeep Parmar
Was it? That's so different working at Oracle, which is quite classically.

06:52
Erin Wolfe
It was so different. Oracle is all about like smile and dial spray and pray, like fill in your pipeline. Just pipe the Op and you're like, did someone even answer the call? Nope. Qualified. I just remember it was called like, you had to like, it was like, called like Bant or something, like Budget Authority. I forget the end. And then t was like today, like the money to buy it or something like that. But like, yeah, so it's the complete opposite. It was like went from like very clear structure to thinking, you know what? Why can't it be me? Like, I think we can live this startup life. And then once I went under, I was like, you know what, it is a humbling experience. I think everyone should probably go through.

07:30
Erin Wolfe
Like, you're like almost like laid off and you're like, okay, what's the new dream? So then I joined like a middle sized business which was great. And they wanted to expand to London. So at that point they were like, okay, like you seem to maybe have something about you that could help our business. Still 50, 51 footed, one foot out. I'm just kidding. They're like, would you like to help launch everything into London? I said yes. That's what actually brought me to London from Silicon Valley.

07:57
Amardeep Parmar
So obviously like everyone in London goes on about Silicon Valley and like, oh, so many.

08:01
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

08:01
Amardeep Parmar
And you constantly LinkedIn now. Oh, you've got to move to Silicon Valley to do well.

08:04
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

08:05
Amardeep Parmar
And obviously you've come the other way.

08:06
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

08:07
Amardeep Parmar
How was that experience of like landing in London and seeing how the culture was different here?

08:11
Erin Wolfe
Oh, it's so different. Like it's way more relaxed here. People take holidays here. People, people love stability here versus in like, I think in the Bay Area. It's like you're getting funding quickly. It's like it's all about, you know, the whole city's seven miles by seven miles. Like it is small. You are so closely. Like, I truly believe you're, like, one or two degrees away from, like, anyone you want to get in front of. And it's like, money's just flying so much faster. It's also a different culture where I think more startups have the opportunity to thrive because more people are just willing to throw their money away. Like, if it burns, they're like, oh, no. Like, let's try again. Like, there's just so much higher risk versus here. I think your customers last way longer.

08:52
Erin Wolfe
Like, you can retain them, you can grow with them. You're probably going to listen to them. Like, versus, like, when I was living in the Bay Area, I was like, it was so not about that. It was just about, like, just moving as quickly as possible. Even if it was the wrong decision, like, who cares? Like, just keep moving, keep moving. Even if you're not really moving in the right direction, as long as you're, like, continuously going. That was that. That was the goal.

09:12
Amardeep Parmar
So when you landed here, then, was it other people in the team or was it just you setting up the team about yourself?

09:17
Erin Wolfe
There was, like, a very small team, but I was, like, the only American. It was lots of British people. We were speaking the same language but didn't know how to communicate. Like, I'll never forget, like, the most, like, nicest British man. He was, like. He ended up being like the MD we kept every morning. Like, are. And like, are you all right? And I feel like I'm so happy you asked. Like, in trying to find for the department, I'm so lost. Like, like, what's my new phone number? Like, how does this all work here? Like, what? He was like, no, no. He was like, I actually don't want to know. Like, I was basically saying, hi. That was supposed to be, like, a breeze by you. Keep going. I was like, oh, okay.

09:52
Erin Wolfe
So, like, it definitely took some adjustments because, like, I also think you move here and you think, like, everyone's so, like, prim and proper. Like, I've seen Notting Hill. Like, that was like, my one point of, like, what it was going to be like to be out here. And everyone's like, I also thought everyone really would love an American. American.

10:09
Amardeep Parmar
When did you move again?

10:11
Erin Wolfe
I moved in end of 2018, early 2019.

10:14
Amardeep Parmar
So doing Trump's first. Brexit. That kind of era. That.

10:19
Erin Wolfe
Exactly that. For whatever reason, because, like, growing up in America, you're taught, like, you know, like, it's a great country. Live free or die. And I was like, they're just going to love me out there. No, but you just have to face plan a couple times where you pick yourself up, get dressed properly and figure it out.

10:36
Amardeep Parmar
How did you find like making friends and like making like ecosystem friends as well, like in the industry?

10:41
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. Fortunately I think that part's a very soft landing. Ended up moving over with a lot of my closest friends actually, like everyone just migrated. They're like, okay, great, like if you're not figuring it out over here, like let's go to somewhere where like, you know, it's easier threshold, you can probably hack it. We're going to move to London.

10:59
Amardeep Parmar
One of the things that a lot of people complain about as well is obviously the big shift in salaries. Right. When you move across.

11:04
Erin Wolfe
Yes.

11:05
Amardeep Parmar
And like how did you find that? Like, was that a big factor for you? Because I know a lot of people now are saying, oh, we're going to move to America to get a job there because of the more money. But then obviously there's benefits of being here in terms of holiday and balancing it all out.

11:17
Erin Wolfe
I will say, like if you want to have a great life experience, stay in London. If you purely just want financial everything, stay in America. Because I do think I, I think I was just so used to the grind. Like I, I was in, I was living in the Bay Area for six years before I moved over. So like fortunately it's like I think I saw enough where I was like, great. Like I think I'm at a place where you are grateful for it because you do feel privileged that you can have that opportunity to have like that semblance of salary at such a young age. Which is probably why we thought were like really too far than we really were. So when you moved here, it really was almost like a kick in the teeth.

11:58
Erin Wolfe
But then it's like you've never travelled more, you've never experienced more. It's like the life experience you get I think is way better over here. I think people actually care about you. And like that's crazy. Like that is crazy to me. So that was like such a new concept.

12:12
Amardeep Parmar
And obviously a couple of years of you being here, then you started to curve up.

12:16
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

12:17
Amardeep Parmar
Where did that idea come from?

12:18
Erin Wolfe
So it was post pandemic and I think everyone had their best ideas when you were locked at home for over a year. So I ended up meeting my two co founders. They were like phenomenal and they both had startups, they both have gone through Y Combinator in the Bay area. So we had some mutual friends. They actually Both sold their startups, which was really impressive. And I remember meeting kind of them through mutuals. We only met each other twice and then we just decided, hey, let's start this. Like, if not now, when? Why, why not just give it a chance? So this building, it was kind of like up for being able to be rented. Most buildings in London are either owned by pretty much two parties. They kind of own everything in central and west.

13:00
Erin Wolfe
This was owned by a nice family that had some history. It was grade two listed and were like, what if we can bring some of that Bay Area buzz to London? Maybe we've learned our lessons and we are going to become billionaires. We didn't.

13:16
Amardeep Parmar
Spoilers. Yeah.

13:17
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. Spoiler alert. We haven't yet.

13:21
Amardeep Parmar
People who don't know what Curve is. Well, can you explain what in the idea was and I guess how it evolve too?

13:26
Erin Wolfe
So we first landed in Curve Club because we wanted a place for everyone to be like ahead of the curve. When Rosie, my co founder, she was also like the main investor as well. When she first announced the name, her sister was like walking by. Her sister was like, wow, what's that? It really sounds like a fat camp. And we like, she didn't realise. We like just signed on the trip parks. We just got everything saying, Curve Club. Curve Club, Curve Club. Like, were committed. Like I was Erin at Curve Dot Club, you know, I was like, we're not changing the name now. So that was an uphill battle. But we always knew that were just like, everyone's lonely, they don't know the right people. It truly is all about who you know.

14:02
Erin Wolfe
I think that's what's one of the hardest jump or like why things are just so much easier in the Bay Area versus London. It's just because it's so much easier to make that connection. So were like, okay, like women aren't really getting funded. There's less opportunities. I don't think like we're going to be the people that just like all of a sudden, like make. I think at this stage we're a bit more realistic in what we could do. So like, let's open this place, always keep it half women, half men. Let's make it for entrepreneurs. We first started as a place for Web3 because that felt ahead of the curve. No one was ahead with us.

14:33
Amardeep Parmar
Who you did there, ahead of the Curve. Yep.

14:34
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. They were like, just. We hate that tagline and we hate our Memberships. So we ended up being like, okay, we're, we're pivoting again. We're actually going to let investors in, we're actually going to let C suites in, we're going to let like people that are building cool things in. So we definitely did like expand it because we realised also the Financial Times came out with the article saying, like, why members clubs are the worst business to be in. And were like, that is stunning. Sensational actually. So were like, that's crazy. So we ended up. And like, and they were right. Like, I truly don't think you can be at a brick and mortar and just be a members club.

15:12
Erin Wolfe
Like, because if you need the exclusivity but you need the growth to like make your investors happy, to make your bottom line happy, to make yourself happy because you pay yourself and you need. That salary is already low. What we ended up doing was we turned some of the floors into corporate offices. We turned Jamie Auber's kitchen, because that was what the building used to be, into three different dark kitchens. So and a dark kitchen is when a company just rents the kitchen from you because they don't want their own brick and mortar and they have all of their business through Uber Eats and Deliveroo. And then we had a floor as the members club which we realised what brings in the most money is actually external events.

15:48
Amardeep Parmar
Hello. Hello. Quick interruption to let you know a bit more about BAE HQ. We're the community for high growth Asian heritage entrepreneurs, operators and investors in the UK. You can join us totally free at thebaehq.com/join. There, you'll get our CEO structure in your inbox every week, which is content, events and opportunities. You can also get access to a free startup fundamentals course by joining. Let's get back to the show before there's like some very tough periods in that transition as well. Oh, can you tell us some of those stories?

16:27
Erin Wolfe
Oh my gosh, yeah. So were like in the beginning, you know, you are your first or I was the first time founder. My co founders weren't. I remember they're like, great, Erin. Like, this is everything that you can do. I was like, amazing. Like I am so qualified. So kind of running that moment back. Like I wish I didn't have to learn through failure, but I'm just that type of personality where it's like I think I have to run into the brick wall before I realising that there's a door right next to me and I could have just turned the handle and it was amazing. You just walked right through it. So when we first started, I think we spent so much money on our fit out, I don't think we needed to do that. But were like, we want this to beautiful.

17:03
Erin Wolfe
I think we absolutely made so many mistakes to the point that we almost ran out of money. So then we had to be the staff. And I remember thinking, like, perfect, I can do this. No, I've, like, never made a drink in my life. I've never made a Latte. Like, people are like, this is awful. I'm like, that's amazing. Come back for more. Like, what were really good at was like, making the connections and being like, hey, like, you two should meet. Like, this is what you're in. This is what you're in. But, like, I think some of our biggest failures were just thinking we should have known the industry better. We, we didn't. Like, none of us had a hospitality background. So that was kind of like red flag on us. Number one. Like, red flag on us.

17:40
Erin Wolfe
Number two was thinking, yeah, the business model would just be like membership based. Like, we. I remember when we ran it in the beginning, were like, gosh, we're going to be so rich so fast. Like, this is crazy. How has no one thought of this before? It's because the idea that we wrote in Excel does not work. Like, when you make that one business model and it's all fake numbers, you put those numbers in, you're crunching them and it's so green, it's so profitable. You're like, we're 40% of year one. Like, yeah. How has no one done this? It's because that's not real. Like, and I think for us, instead of just like doing any fact checks or anything, we just went forward with it. Had to learn the hard way by just doing everything wrong before we finally figured out what was right.

18:24
Erin Wolfe
Because you had to, if you're back to the corner.

18:26
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah. And I guess actually talking about emotions, though, moments. Right. So you can now laugh about it again.

18:30
Erin Wolfe
Right.

18:31
Amardeep Parmar
Things are acting better now.

18:32
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

18:32
Amardeep Parmar
At the time, like, how did you feel? How are you able to cope with this struggle?

18:35
Erin Wolfe
Oh, it was like we kept trying to cling on to, like, being net positive. As in you knew you're going to be taking the biggest L's in your life, but try to find the silver lining. Look, we're so privileged that we get to clean this toilet, make that latte run. That event. I was like, I love working from 8am till 11pm I'm so privileged to do it? No. So we definitely had some really low moments. Cause I think, firstly, I had no idea how hard hospitality was. Like, I had only ever done B2B SaaS. And then even in high school, I worked at the mall. Like, I can fold clothes really well, so I wouldn't say that I was, like, equipped in the beginning to do it. I think were all so ambitious and were, like, were so passionate about solving this problem.

19:20
Erin Wolfe
Still are. I think that's why it, like, made it to a place of, like, it finally got profitable, which were, like, ecstatic about. I think that was, like, our proudest moment. But in order to get there, we really realised, like, this business isn't working. And I think that's actually the hardest part. When you have an idea, you love your idea, but your idea doesn't work.

19:40
Amardeep Parmar
And obviously, because there's three of you. Right?

19:41
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

19:42
Amardeep Parmar
How was that realisation across you? Did you all come about the same time? Was it some of you needing to convince or how did that dynamic work?

19:49
Erin Wolfe
I think it was very staggered because for a while, like, Iona, our cto, she's like a genius. Like, she. She studied engineering. She was. She's always been like the first tech hire. She can do anything. She was building our app and were like, whoa. Like, if you build the app, then suddenly we got all these online memberships. We're billionaires. We went back to the model. We were like, times up by a hundred thousand X. Because we're digital now. We're a digital place. Forget the building, we're digital. Like, no, that, that didn't work. And then, like, you know, Rosie's run so many businesses before, so she was like, we could do this, we could do that. It was like, I, like. And they were, they were usually in the office. I was, like, always in the trenches.

20:30
Erin Wolfe
Like at Curve Club, day in, day out, I was like, guys, I just. I don't think it's working. I actually, I actually think it's on fire. So I think we had to actually have a lot of hard conversations as co founders where you have to feel comfortable butting heads, I think, because it's a hard realisation, I think, to come to. To be like, whoa. I think we're working on something that will fail unless we make some, like, radical change.

20:55
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah. And I think it's one of these conversations that people don't really talk about publicly. Sometimes it's really useful to hear that. And for. Because in pregnancy, like I said, a lot of companies aren't Gonna go as planned. Maybe they don't end up working out at all. Like, obviously, you were able to make it profitable in the end.

21:09
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, but not with the original idea.

21:12
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah.

21:13
Erin Wolfe
Like, I think we tried to hold onto what were doing for too long. I think that was, like, our biggest learning was we spent too many months holding onto the fact of the original idea of being just for founders, just doing this. But, like, you know, if your audience doesn't always have, like, the right budget to align with, like, your business, we then had to adopt the mentality of just don't die. Like, that's what we called it. Day in, day out, it's called just don't die. So what can we do today to not die as a business? And I think once you're in that mode, it becomes easier. Like, we started adopting, like, a fast feedback framework. Like, if someone said something, I was like, okay, we can no longer have emotions in this. We just need to, like, get going.

21:52
Erin Wolfe
And that's when we saw the change starting to happen, because we're like, let's just double down. Really understand, like, every single line on the P and L. Like, what are some silly things that we're like, we're burning our own cash. What are things that can help us? What are these, like, drastic changes that can be made? I think that was the hardest part, especially because, like, you're so down because in your head, you're thinking, I can't believe I failed. Like, we've told so many people. I also think a hard part of being a founder is it's like, you want to be vulnerable. But when you're in such, like, you're in the consumer space, like, no one wants to hear that. Like, they want to hear your wins. They want to hear, like, what's going really well.

22:26
Erin Wolfe
They don't want to hear, like, you're actually struggling. Your. Your Latte is the worst latte they've ever had. Your pint's also horrific. I'm just kidding. But, like, I think. I think that's really hard because it's like, you're. You're also so hard on yourself because it's like, you don't want to fail. Like, failure isn't natural. So I think going through that was also really difficult for us.

22:48
Amardeep Parmar
I think it's so hard because, like you said, where people who have found us, obviously, you can have some level of delusion and pride in order to even start in the first place.

22:56
Erin Wolfe
Right? Yeah.

22:57
Amardeep Parmar
But then when that conflicts with reality, and also, then if you're trying to maintain this image which isn't real, then it just creates that tension inside of you, Right?

23:06
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. And it is the chicken and the egg. Like, sometimes who's ever shouting the loudest ends up creating great profit. So were trying everything. We were like, maybe if we start shouting about her doing this or doing that, like, then it'll start working. But I think the hardest part is also keeping the team together at those times. Because it's like when you're at a low in the business, no one's usually their best selves. Like, you're not walking in thinking, I am going to be such a good support for you today. Like, there's no way. And I wish also people talked about that more because, like, you just don't think about that. Or also it's like when you get rejected from something or rejected from an investor, but then you hear someone that's so more successful than you being like, hey, were rejected too.

23:47
Erin Wolfe
I was like, why didn't you tell me that? You told me to reach out to them, you know? So I think, like, there is always this facade of people aren't always telling you the full truth. And I think it took us a while to actually understand that because you take so much at face value. Social media is so big. You're. You're reading into a lot of things. And also it's like you naturally want to trust people. Like, you're not going to go in and not believe it.

24:06
Amardeep Parmar
It's one of the things I'm trying to work on now as well, because I think so much enthusiasm. It's like I'm trying to be really clear about my limits now.

24:12
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

24:13
Amardeep Parmar
Because if I just say to everybody, I can help them, I can't help everybody.

24:16
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

24:16
Amardeep Parmar
But you kind of get drawn into a conversation where someone's asking for advice, someone's asking for help, like, yeah, sure, I can do that. It's like, I don't have the time, so I'm not like. But then also you can see the hurt when you say I can't do this or I can't do that. And obviously you have to do that at members and like, the event you're doing is okay.

24:30
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

24:31
Amardeep Parmar
Not everything is possible.

24:32
Amardeep Parmar
Right.

24:32
Amardeep Parmar
It's a business at the end of the day. And I think the more the people that you're going to be working with long term, they need to understand as a business, and if somebody can't understand that, they're probably not the right customers for you as well.

24:41
Erin Wolfe
Exactly. And I think that is the lesson took us a while to learn because, again, it's just so hard to let go of your initial idea because that's. That's why you did it. And you also, as like, you have this. You want to prove them wrong. You want to be like, no, I can do it. Like, you can't. Like, the faster that you could just look yourself in the mirror and be like, pivot. It's so much easier said than done. But that was one of our, I think our biggest learnings or even just talking to some industry experts before you launch also would have been stunning. We didn't really do that. We actually did not listen to any of them.

25:13
Amardeep Parmar
So it's also now with the same co-founder team, you're on your next idea, and there's gonna be a lot of lessons you learned from the previous one to make this one better. Right?

25:20
Erin Wolfe
Exactly.

25:20
Amardeep Parmar
So tell us about this next idea.

25:21
Erin Wolfe
So now we have launched Cinni AI, which we're really excited about. We're actually hosting so many investor events, fashion founder events, and everything at Curve Club that it was like, almost like the perfect launchpad. So Iona, our cto, again, like, genius girl, she started, like, working with, like, different LLMs, started learning, like, different things around AI. Like, she just started, like, testing around with, like, hey, like, different MVPs to see if it was working. So were able to kind of like, bring in front of these different people being like, hey, would you use this? Is this your pain point? So different than how we started Curve Club. Like, we kind of curve with, like, we knew the pain points. Like, no, we didn't know those pain points. Like, it was awful.

25:58
Erin Wolfe
But this time around, we, like, we really knew, like, okay, what's something that we're also passionate about? Because I think another topic is that we would always get feedback on for Curve Club is they were like, women only work industries that aren't profitable. It's like, why don't you go into finance? Like, why don't you go into this or this? And were like, crap. Do we just follow that stereotype again by going to fashion? At least it's like fashion tech. But it is something that we always think about because it's like, it is hard to work on something unless you're passionate about us. And the one thing that we know how to do is shop and run a business. Obviously very qualified, but no. So then once we started talking to enough people, getting their feedback, we got.

26:38
Erin Wolfe
We were able to speak with, like, amazing people that are, like, some of the best in the industry. They were like, this is what you need to work on. These are the trends. Like this is. We, were like chatting with like Google for startups. We were like really doubling down on like, okay, let's talk to industry leaders, let's validate our idea, let's get some trials going. So we had some awesome people use us in the very beginning to see does the tech work, does this work? We were able to raise some fundraising which was great. Also raising funds as a second time founder definitely is different as a first time founder because they have just that minuscule more faith that you can hack it.

27:11
Erin Wolfe
Because I think also the biggest thing we learned at Curve Club is that at the pre seed level they are, they're kind of investing in the idea, but they're really investing as you, as a founder because the idea is going to change. Like the idea is going to be so different. So they want us to know that you're the team that's going to solve that problem. And I think we understood that this time around were like, listen, we've cleaned enough toilets to know we're going to do it differently this time. So were able to kind of. It was a very roundabout way to launch Cinni because we actually had to start an entire members club first to launch this.

27:41
Amardeep Parmar
Advice for all founders at best. Start. Start.

27:44
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, get the building, sign it for 10 years. That's how you start your tech business. So everyone was laughing like, was that intentional? And were like, sure. It was so intentional. I'm, I'm shocked you're asking me that.

27:58
Amardeep Parmar
That was our go to market strategy, the network.

28:00
Erin Wolfe
And it was a strategy because were so smart. No, so it was nice because you end up meeting so many people and I think being able to validate your idea early with like honest feedback without people being like too British polite was great because I think when we first started Curve Club were asking people about it. People were so nice to your face that they were saying yes to everything because it's like the nice thing to do. But like, no, you need to hear those hard truths in the beginning or else. Like then all of a sudden you're in the just don't die mentality and you're like, how did I get here? Like we talked to all these people.

28:30
Erin Wolfe
So now what we're working on is how to bring like personalised search and AI product tagging and taxonomy to brands so they can make more money. Because they are also our biggest thing. We learned about Curve Club. Everyone's here to make more money, honey. You know, like, and if we can do that for other brands, then we will actually be a great business.

28:46
Amardeep Parmar
I like the one there is about the team because you said like a second time founder, it's not just that you're a second time founder, it's also that it's the same team.

28:53
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

28:53
Amardeep Parmar
So you can prove that, right? Because as an investor, you look at it as all these people going to stick together when times gets tough, what are they going to do? And as you said, obviously you're not the best every day to each other, but the fact that they went through a really hard time and you're still together says so much about you and your personalities.

29:09
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. I think we've all seen each other at our lowest. Sometimes we've stayed there for a little too long, but were able to pull each other out because you also see those people at their high. I think one of our other like really close founder friends, they would always tell us or give us that feedback is if you have this, like the biggest win, are you standing shoulder to shoulder with the person you want to be next to? And if you can say yes. And that is a good founding team.

29:31
Amardeep Parmar
So looking at the next project, right. So you're obviously doing this while Curve was running and you had all the stress there. Also doing this on the other side as well and trying to grow this at the same time. How's your balance now? Where's your focus?

29:42
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. So now thankfully, knock on wood, we have like an amazing team with like real hospitality experience, like running Curve Club, which has been like phenomenal because you always want to hire people better than you. For us, we set the bar pretty loud. So once we finally got a team in place that was like really running Curve and we like felt like, okay, great, this is going, this can continue in the upwards direction. we can full time commit to Cinni. So it was a staggered approach. Like I think I was on, when everyone could actually jump on. I would say in hindsight, would we do that again? Like, no, I think that's really difficult. Like, again, one of our biggest learnings is you should never split your time. Like if you're doing something 50, you're never going to win.

30:24
Erin Wolfe
You need to be 100% laser focused one idea. Like 90% of businesses fail in their first year and if you're like looking at two different things, like, there's no way that it's gonna work. So we really had to go into like A crazy mode of like, you're not seeing anyone, you're not seeing your friends, you're not seeing your family, you're sacrificing a little bit. And that was, I think the hardest part was that transition.

30:44
Amardeep Parmar
And then now with Cinni as well. So obviously when you came into this first one, you were the first time founder with other two hood roles. Have you now worked out how you work best together and what's your role in Cinni?

30:53
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, so now I think we really had to iron out the bumps, which is great. My role is, it's like, it's always been like bringing on, like really just like anything revenue related. It's like bringing on partners, bringing in like the different people we can work with, running the trials, being very customer facing. But it is an interesting role because in the beginning it's like, technically you have your roles, but when you're like a small team of five, everyone has to do everything. So I think that was one of our, also our biggest learnings from Curve was like, even if like these are your roles, like in a startup, you can't just stay in your lane. Like, everyone has to be helping each other out.

31:30
Erin Wolfe
Well, I mean, maybe I won't be coding because the company would actually go under, but like in every other regard, I think people you do end up crossing over a lot. Until like I was like, I don't even think we would need titles and you could just be like kind of like a co founder because you have to wear so many hats in the beginning.

31:46
Amardeep Parmar
So let's say two years time, 200 episodes later, we get you back sitting here again.

31:50
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

31:51
Amardeep Parmar
What would you love to be able to say that Cinni's been able to do?

31:53
Erin Wolfe
I would love to be able to say that we are powering like all the awesome shops. Our conversion rates are through the roof. ROI. So good, I'm inviting you on my PJ. We are taking vacations. We're laughing. We're actually filming this somewhere else in a great country. We're having the best time. We're talking about our angel investments. We're living the dream.

32:12
Amardeep Parmar
And obviously like now, in the next year or so, what kind of things are you looking forward to? What can people be who are watching now pay attention to coming out from you.

32:20
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. Our big focus right now is just like we are finessing. We are in complete growth mode. I think in order to jump out of like pre seed, it's like we finally have like, we have our first paying customers. People are kind of coming out of trials. We're revenue generating, but we really have to be like, all gas, no brakes, like, flying forward. Because I think AI is such a rat race. You're constantly innovating, you can't get comfortable. So if you see me, it will probably be like a little frantic, hopefully a bit more stable. But we really want to be like the best in this small, little niche and like, this is our small slice of the pie that we're trying to dominate.

32:55
Amardeep Parmar
And what do you think your advantage is between you and your team to be able to maintain that advantage against all the competitors or people who might want to join someday?

33:03
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, right now I think our biggest edge was funnily enough, like the community. Like, we had a great network, we have a great team that have proven that they can work together and we can iterate very quickly. And I think we now know how to like what moving too quickly in the wrong direction looks like. So ideally, I think we can stay on top of it because of the.

33:24
Amardeep Parmar
Experience and then like long term. So let's say 10 years time, 20 years time, whenever. What would you love to be able to say that this is what Cine's been able to achieve? You've exited whatever it is.

33:33
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, yeah, I would love to even I think long term plan. You're always just racing towards optionality. Like you want to be in that place where like people are like frothing to maybe buy your business for an exit or you're running this like, amazing place and you're creating so many opportunities. I think like, that is like the ultimate goal for anyone. Like, I would love to have that optionality of like, it's. We're, we have that choice. We're not backed into a corner. We're no longer just don't die mode. But we like know how to make the business grow. We're expanding. It's dominating every country.

34:03
Amardeep Parmar
So, yeah, so we're going to get to quick fire questions now. It's been really fun because obviously we had a good chat beforehand as well. So it's so many good stories that weren't allowed to say in the podcast as well. Damn it. But first, quick fire question. Who are free British, Asians or Asians in Britain you think are doing incredible work and you'd love to chat them up.

34:21
Erin Wolfe
Okay, the first one is Dalbir Bains. She is the absolute best. She is the best career woman. She just started her new thing called Santalan Coaching. So if you're anyone that needs advice and you want to talk to someone that is Just the most badass woman ever. It's her. Secondly is Simone Oloman. She's the founder of Nift. So it's like 90 minute delivery for clothing or like some same day someday could be like whenever you need it. But if you want like the best independent fashion of all time, you're panicking, you're not stylish, you get anything on our website, you're going to look great. It saved us so many times. And the last one is Renee Milner, the founder of Ode Rae, which is this sustainable swimwear. And I think they're going to be like the next big thing.

35:00
Erin Wolfe
And if I just do one last one, it's just Ria, she's the founder of Matriarch. She's just the dream. I genuinely think she's going to change the world for the better.

35:07
Amardeep Parmar
Awesome. So kind of cheating there, but I'll let you get away with it.

35:10
Erin Wolfe
Yeah, sorry, I was like, oh, I'm all for. Yeah.

35:12
Amardeep Parmar
What people try to do is like when there's multiple co founders and then I get like 10 people in to pre, it's like, there.

35:18
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

35:18
Amardeep Parmar
If you want to find out more about you, Cinni, where should they get to?

35:23
Erin Wolfe
Linkedin. If anything, it's. You're almost like quiet town, but LinkedIn is just Erin Wolfe for Instagram. Erin K. Wolfe.

35:29
Amardeep Parmar
That's interesting, I guess because people think in the fashion space it's often TikTok and Instagram.

35:33
Erin Wolfe
Yeah.

35:34
Amardeep Parmar
How's that been for you? And deciding to focus on LinkedIn or why have you looked at those different aspects?

35:38
Erin Wolfe
Because interestingly enough, at the end of the day we're still a B2B company. So it's like we're selling to other brands, we're selling to other businesses. Like you have other tech partners. I think it's like we're very gentle on the Instagram TikTok, but like, if you want to make a business, you should be on LinkedIn because that's where your investors are, that's where your tech partners are. That's where like the big brands are. So it's like if you want to like roll with the big boys, you need to get in front of them.

36:03
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, I completely agree and I often tell people this because people, my DMs on Instagram are just way weirder generally than on LinkedIn.

36:10
Erin Wolfe
Makes no sense. Yeah, I'm always like, I am not on here for that.

36:14
Amardeep Parmar
And if people listening right now could. They're interested in what you're doing, they could potentially help out. Is there anything they could help out with ?

36:21
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. I mean, any intros, we always love it. We love meeting new people. We love a lovely open door that people do for us.

36:31
Amardeep Parmar
So, yeah, Any particular intros or any groups of people?

36:34
Erin Wolfe
Yeah. Any fashion brands, any communities? We'd love to meet them. We'd love to show them what we're doing. Have them. We'll even give them a complimentary free trial. Just see what we're doing.

36:44
Amardeep Parmar
Awesome. So thanks so much for coming on. Any final words?

36:47
Erin Wolfe
Any final words?

36:48
Amardeep Parmar
Whoa.

36:48
Erin Wolfe
I never thought that was where I was going to stop at. You've had too many words. I'd say any final words is if you're ever looking to try something. I'd say, just take the leap. I'd say go for it.

37:02
Amardeep Parmar
Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. See you next time. 

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