What Startup Founders Need To Know About The Law w/ Amardeep Gill | Trowers & Hamlins

 Amardeep Gill: [00:00:00] What they do is ultimately protect you. They protect your, your, all of the effort that you're putting into your organization and the business that you're growing, uh, and will protect you from losing that one way or another.

Amardeep Parmar: On today's episode, we'll talk about the importance of law when you're starting up your company. We go through like when you should get somebody involved, right at the start, the important co founder relationships and getting that really foundational ready at the beginning. Then we look at your product as well and making sure the IP is everything's in order.

Amardeep Parmar: And then some of the different challenges you come across the journey as well. So we've got experts with us. Who's  Amardeep Gill, who's a commercial partner at Trowers & Hamlins. He's got over 20 years of experience and has worked with many different startups. Trowers & Hamlins, through Unbelief Gear as well, have been supporters of the BAE HQ and they gave us pro bono law advice right at the start and believed in us right from the very beginning.

Amardeep Parmar: So I want to [00:01:00] say a massive thank you to them and let's get into the show. So many people are afraid of the law side of things, the legal side of things when they start a business, and often people choose to just ignore it until maybe it's too late. Why is it so important for founders out there, for people at startups, to get someone like you involved early on in the journey?

 Amardeep Gill: I think there's loads of legal aspects to setting up a successful business, and it underlies the framework in which you'll operate, how you'll sell your product or service, how you'll deal with growth, how you'll protect your intellectual property, how you'll employ people, how you'll take, um, on leases and assets and enter into partnerships.

 Amardeep Gill: So it kind of falls into various categories on that, that journey. And of course I'm a lawyer. So of course I would say legal contracts are important. Um, but what they do is ultimately protect you. They protect your, your, all of the effort that you're putting into your organization and the business that you're growing and will protect you from losing that one way or another, whether that be through, you know, your hard work, not going in the way that you wanted it or [00:02:00] entering into a partnership that doesn't quite work.

 Amardeep Gill: And not only am I there to kind of do the legal contracts, I often find myself kind of providing, you know, commercial kind of mentoring advice about what do I think? What have I seen here before? And having done this for over 20 years, it's, you know, there's a lot of similarities in the growth journey.

 Amardeep Gill: The product, the service, the initiative may be different from business to business, but actually a lot of the themes often crop up. So I think if I was to say one thing about legal contracts and engaging a lawyer that you can have a genuine conversation with, that understands your passion, doesn't want to inhibit it, but is there to have your back, um, and...

 Amardeep Gill: Having your back for me is making sure that your interests are rigorously protected in all the contractual documents that you enter into. And that can start from, you know, co founders having a conversation about their respective relationship and how they want to regulate that and then growing that to be more market focused.

 Amardeep Gill: All the supply contracts that you enter into, [00:03:00] um, as a supplier, all those that you have, um, in terms of the supply chain that you're setting up. Okay. And then, uh, and anything that crops up on that great cycle. So I will fall into, um, support at any point in that journey, but having the groundwork set at the outset, I think is pretty fundamental to ensure that all your hard effort, uh, is not lost as a consequence of not getting that done and sorted out early on, and it's better to do it.

 Amardeep Gill: As part of the growth journey, rather than, you know, a few years down the line thinking, Oh my God, something's crops up. Um, and this is going to be a bit sticky, get the lawyer involved. It's more costly. It takes a harder, uh, it's harder to unravel and takes considerably more time at that point. So it's always easier to get decent contracts, not particularly exuberant or extortionate in cost and just get the foundations right.

 Amardeep Gill: In the early days. 

Amardeep Parmar: So before we started recording as well, we were talking about co founder relationships, right? Because that's a huge reason why so many startups fail is that the co founder [00:04:00] start off with the same vision. 

 Amardeep Gill:Yeah. 

Amardeep Parmar: They then diverge and then it's, well, who owns the company? And they haven't, like you said, they didn't do their work at the beginning.

Amardeep Parmar: What's something you advise co founders at that kind of stage when they're putting together? What's some of the common things that maybe they should be thinking about when they're into that kind of relationship? 

 Amardeep Gill: So I think that the co founder or multi founder dynamic is quite an interesting one, as well as actually, I also work for family businesses, family offices, you know, the inter..

 Amardeep Gill: intergenerational change that happens equally, you know, it can be similar issues crop up. So I think with co founders, as the lawyer in the room, I will always be the one that talks about the scenario in which there is a divergence between the two in terms of their understanding, in terms of what they want

 Amardeep Gill: to do in terms of how they wanted to do it. And actually that's a very difficult conversation when you've got two really kind of tend to be type A, um, alpha personalities. They have a clear vision for what they want to do. They are joint at the hip. They do not see anything other than massive growth and massive success side [00:05:00] by side together.

 Amardeep Gill: Um, and then you've got somebody like me wanting to regulate the relationship and all the negative consequences of a fallout. It's a difficult conversation to have, um, but also I think it's necessary because it adds reality to, to the potential trajectory that you could be on. And it's much easier to resolve those issues at the outset when actually the, the relationship is quite good.

 Amardeep Gill: Um, and. You know, there's a reasonableness to it. And you can think about what you do at that point about the IP that you've generated together, about the client base that you've generated together. Because if I come into a relationship that has gone sour, the ability to communicate is absolutely lost in those circumstances.

 Amardeep Gill: And if you've got a shareholder's agreement that deals with these scenarios, it's much easier to have that at the outset. And I think, like I say, it's never a comfortable conversation to have, but it's much easier to have when you're, when you're on good terms, the aspiration and the joint vision is there.

 Amardeep Gill: And actually what you're trying to do at a later point is [00:06:00] unravel something that perhaps hasn't worked for you individually, or as you agree, as a collective. And when you're dissolving something, it is painful. There's a mourning that goes on, there's anger, there's frustration, and it's much easier to kind of

 Amardeep Gill: take out some of the emotion if it's all written down in the first instance. So, um, and equally so just on the other end of the scale, when I'm looking at intergenerational companies in the transition there, if the next generation wants to take it a different direction, you know, having some of those

 Amardeep Gill: conversations again, it's quite difficult, but it's much easier to have it perhaps with me in the room that that can advise on what I've seen based on 20 years of experience, et cetera, to take out some of the difficulty of that conversation for the individuals involved, because they're emotionally engaged.

 Amardeep Gill: Whereas, you know, I'm not. I can offer very practical commercial support without there being any, um, bias associated with that. Well, you're [00:07:00] saying, well, everybody wants to hear, you're saying, well, you want to hear, you know, I'm not, I'm there as an independent third party that's going to give you some decent advice at that point, because it's not working.

Amardeep Parmar: And we mentioned there as well, because right at the beginning, when people are on the same vision, then they're probably much more agreeable and getting those terms down, when it, if it does go sour. Then there's much less chance of bitterness because they've agreed to it already. 

 Amardeep Gill: Yeah.

Amardeep Parmar: Whereas when you're trying to make the terms once you haven't agreed yet, then it's like, well, I should be this, I should be that.

Amardeep Parmar: And you've got that more ego and defensiveness right there. And what are some of the things you've seen in that kind of regard too, where you can see like the mistakes that people have made there, where like they put something into a contract early before they were working with you, for example, and then that's then backfired on them.

Amardeep Parmar: Things that people should be careful about putting into contracts in a co found relationship that may be, you'd advise them against  doing. 

 Amardeep Gill: I think one of the big things is what, how you define contribution [00:08:00] and when you are disaggregating everything, how you then take the various contributions into consideration and contribution can be time.

 Amardeep Gill: It can be money. It can be various assets, intellectual property, and there isn't always an equality between the co founders in regard to any of those categories. And so, you know, one, one person may say, I have put in this asset, you know, or I, I've acquired the IP and I paid this much for it, or I've put X hours in because you were doing something else, or I've put this amount of capital in.

 Amardeep Gill: Um, and, you know, its decisions that are made at, at the point at which, you know, you're, you're on this journey together to the point at which clearly it's not working and you want to disaggregate it and you want to go your separate ways. The con, the conversation I think about contribution is the most difficult one to have, especially if, you know, there is an emotional charge in that conversation.

 Amardeep Gill: [00:09:00] And I think one of the things to unravel at that point is, you know, how, what is equitable. What is fair? What do you walk away with? What do I walk away with at that point, uh, given those different contributions? And I think there's never a wrong or right. Uh, and this is the, the, the point at which, you know, there is a juggling act to happen and to cut through that in the interests of both parties, you know, I, I often have to say, look, you know, there is a need for compromise.

 Amardeep Gill: There is a need for you to park that ego that you've just spoken about. Um, there is a need for you to look at the bigger picture here. Do not energetically get wrapped in a fight. Um, when actually that energy should be spent on looking at the next step. 

Amardeep Parmar: And you mentioned as well, well, like products is one of your key areas of interest too.

Amardeep Parmar: And advising your clients on how to set up their legal framework around their products to make sure they're protected in the future. 

 Amardeep Gill: Yeah. 

Amardeep Parmar: I'm guessing a lot of [00:10:00] people probably don't do that at the beginning, right? And they then run into problems later on. What are some of the things that, let's say, somebody listening right now has created a product.

Amardeep Parmar: They're really excited about it. They're trying to raise money. They're trying to do different things. What are some of the things that maybe they should just slow down and think about right at the early stages to make sure they are protected? 

 Amardeep Gill: So I think protecting intellectual property, trademarking, whatever you've got, I think is fundamental at the outset because then it belongs to you.

 Amardeep Gill: Then it can't be exploited. It can't be taken over. If you're entering into partnerships where with an organization that's bigger than you, you know., signing basic NDAs when you're having discussions to make sure that they can't take what is yours, um, making your partnership agreements pretty robust in terms of what is theirs and what is yours, what you're bringing to the party, you know, you know, it does happen in business that people take other people's ideas, they take their hard work and make it their own because they can scale at a quicker rate than they can.

 Amardeep Gill: Um, and that's the inherent problem of being small and then growing up. Um, pretty quickly through third party relationships. And I think always protecting [00:11:00] your assets. You know, it's like having home insurance for your home. It's your most valuable asset. Of course, you would not think twice about having insurance for it.

 Amardeep Gill: Um, and actually protecting what is yours is insurance against using it or it being exploited, uh, in a way that you didn't intend. 

Amardeep Parmar: Andlooking at those companies as well. So, for example, if an NDA, right? When would you advise people? Use that. Is it something you should do for every interaction or is some kind of threshold

Amardeep Parmar: you think where that's the right time for people to start thinking about those? 

 Amardeep Gill: So, um, an overview conversation is, is not, I think, an NDA territory when you're having, uh, perhaps, uh, an overarching kind of conversation where you're not disclosing anything that's material to, to whatever your asset is, whatever your business is going to do.

 Amardeep Gill: I think the point that you, you start disclosing what I would consider trade secrets or confidential information or commercial information, and it's, it's context specific in every [00:12:00] circumstance. That's when there's a need for an NDA. It can be a one way NDA where the other person is under an obligation, or it can be a mutual NDA where there's a sharing of information between the parties.

 Amardeep Gill: And, you know, they're fairly standard, uh, contracts and there's a few things that you probably have to look out for, but I think. That for me, you don't get the NDA out in the very first two minutes of a conversation with anybody, but you have to be savvy enough and confident enough to say, look, we're heading into a conversation here where I want to have a really honest conversation with you about my business.

 Amardeep Gill: I think that's a huge compliment to the other party in order for me to do that, I think it's necessary for an NDA to be signed. And actually, if you're dealing with somebody who's been in that space before. Understand the importance of it, there won't be any pushback from that. It's fairly standard, but I think it's important to, to, to get it in place pretty early on in the conversation.

Amardeep Parmar: I think because one of the challenges there is somebody, when you're an early organisation, is that sometimes people will be pushing about, get pushed back against [00:13:00] your ideas, right? And it's like, you know that you can do what you're going to say, but in order to prove that you have to give them information that will enable them to maybe do what you're trying to do.

 Amardeep Gill: Right. 

Amardeep Parmar: And that's where, like you said, like an NDA really comes in handy there because let's say I'm pitching to somebody and I'm saying, okay, we're going to get to this numbers by this numbers by that time. It just sounds like hubris. Right. When you realize there's a massive plan behind it and there's lots of acquired information from the years of whatever we've been doing, that means that we've got information that our competitors don't have.

Amardeep Parmar: Then that's where the difference comes right. And I think it's especially interesting when people trying to raise capital is that they'll give the pitch deck to so many people, but it's trying to work out like, how do you protect the bit? That's actually, this is how we're going to do it. I think it comes down to the, how we're going to do it.

Amardeep Parmar: Right. Is that when it comes to that, that's where it's good to protect yourself. 

 Amardeep Gill: Absolutely. 

Amardeep Parmar: What we're going to do. Anybody can say, oh, we're going to do this, this and this, but how you do it is that real secret part.

 Amardeep Gill: Absolutely. So pitch decks, you know, that I've seen plenty of my time and they, they speak to different things, depending on what you [00:14:00] prepare the pitch deck and what the vision is for the organization.

 Amardeep Gill: But, you know, it is all about the, the how perhaps the why, but, you know, the, the actual process and the detail, ‘cause you can't go very deep in the how, but you, you should have enough information to add confidence because if you're only selling a vision, you know, that's great, but it's only a vision. So you need to say that the what.

 Amardeep Gill: A little bit about the why, some elements of the how, and it's a fine balance to draw actually, um, but it's all about whetting the appetite, isn't it? 

Amardeep Parmar: And  you mentioned as well about being a small company and the need to protect yourself there. And I guess a lot of people worry about it with the legal side of things.

Amardeep Parmar: If they enter an agreement, even if it's an NDA with a larger organization, they're just going to get steamrolled. And how has that process been when you're trying to protect some of these smaller companies from larger companies? And I guess to reassure people out there, like, is that something where

Amardeep Parmar: if there's an NDA or if there's an agreement in place where it is possible for these small organizations to protect themselves comfortably. 

 Amardeep Gill: I think part of it is having confidence [00:15:00] that actually, you know, you have a worth, your idea has a worth, it's worth protecting. And if you think there is, you know, uh, irregularity in the way that you're being dealt with to have the confidence to say, actually, this is not acceptable.

 Amardeep Gill: We've signed this NDA. We, you are under a confidentiality obligation. You can't exploit this for your own purpose. Uh, and we'll take action. And, you know, often it's, it's necessary to, to stand your ground in any relationship. Yeah, these are worst case scenarios, by the way, a lot of these, uh, a lot of these conversations go without consequence and, you know, it's great.

 Amardeep Gill: Um, but where it doesn't, it is being able to say, well, A, I thought about. A worst case scenario, I dealt with it through a decision to enter into an NDA or similar. Um, and I have no qualms about actually exercising my rights because you're in breach of the promises that you've made to me. And it's like any conversation that you have, you have to have very clear boundaries and what you are willing to tolerate because, [00:16:00] um, people will steamroll over you if you don't

 Amardeep Gill: have clear boundaries, and it's also how you show up in the conversation as well up to that point. You know, if, and I'm not talking about being arrogant, I'm not talking about pushing in an unnecessary way because that's unattractive in any conversation. But, you know, the air of confidence without undermining yourself, it's an art form.

 Amardeep Gill: And actually, you get better with it over time. And I've seen some you know, really great growth journeys in terms of presentation from some of the clients that I've worked with, where they start off not believing themselves properly. And actually that, that comes across in their conversation and terminology that they use.

 Amardeep Gill: But the more you get exposed to all of these conversations, the better it becomes. And the better you become at it like anything. Um, and I think that confidence and placing a value on yourself and whatever it is that you've created is pretty fundamental throughout that process. And the legal document is the thing that perhaps you rely on if there is a [00:17:00] breach in some way or one shape or another.

 Amardeep Gill: But in reality, actually, you know, if people know that you're quite boundaried and you will defend yourself, they probably won't even go there in the first instance. So how you show up, I think, is pretty important. 

Amardeep Parmar: Yeah, it's  a huge signaling aspect as well, right? Is that if, like you said, you value your ideas, you value your work, and you said something like you're going to make your son an NDA, then they're probably less likely to take advantage of you because of the fact that, you know, they know, okay, this person is going to the effort to protect themselves.

Amardeep Parmar: So there's that aspect too. And I know that you've worked with so many different startups and you've covered different areas as well. What part of it do you enjoy the most yourself? Like, what's the area that you really love engaging your clients on? x

 Amardeep Gill: Yeah,  I just, there's a couple of points I know that you have to professionalize yourself when you're going to go into the real world.

 Amardeep Gill: And actually, I think that that professionalization process is from interacting and watching others do it. But the second point around, you know, what do I really do? I really love people's [00:18:00] energy. I really love their passion that they bring. It's so energizing when they're in that place where they think, my God, I can conquer the world with this.

 Amardeep Gill: And what a beautiful thing to see, you know, all of that hard work, all of that, you know, effort that's gone in. And I just love being around those kind of people that really think that they're going to make a difference and will want to make a difference. There's a will there, there's an energy about that, that is really compelling.

 Amardeep Gill: And when it lands and you see them grow and you've been part of that journey, you've supported them and you've held them. And, you know, um, I love all of that. And it's, it's such a great payback to get as a lawyer when you get a phone call and say, and they say, how many, you know, we've just landed that massive pitch or we've just got that contract, you know, and I'm there for them, you know, because that's, that's, that's points that need celebration.

 Amardeep Gill: Um, um, and so I get an absolute kick out of that because watching people succeed is a wonderful thing. [00:19:00] It's a really wonderful thing. 

Amardeep Parmar: And as you said,  because you've got this vast experience now, you can advise beyond just the legal side of it, right? Because you've got the experience of what other companies have advised in the past have done or what their clients have done.

Amardeep Parmar: And what are some of the stuff that you've seen, maybe people like the people listening now should just avoid just generally, not maybe to do the legal side, but just these common mistakes you've seen. And maybe even some of the things that the clients you've worked with, what the traits that you've seen in them that then enabled them to do

Amardeep Parmar: as well as I And as you said, 

 Amardeep Gill: x I think that we touch on some of it around, um, undervaluing yourself and overvaluing yourself. You know, quiet confidence is, is the place that you should always try to be at. You know, if you want to sell yourself, you lack the confidence you will be taken advantage of if you oversell yourself.

 Amardeep Gill: Ego is manifest. People will not back you. People will not believe what you're saying. So finding a place of absolute quiet confidence is quite a, it's quite a balancing act actually, becoming compelling in your narrative about what it is you're doing and what you're doing. It's, it's a difficult thing [00:20:00] to achieve, but I think that's really important.

 Amardeep Gill: Outside of the legal stuff, I think, um, making the right decision about your partners, who you give equity to, how much equity you give away. I think they're real decisions. You know, people give away equity at the outset, willy nilly. When I think that's actually really detrimental to the journey overall, you know, I think equity should be sacrosanct and in the broader, in terms of broader support, you know, if you're bringing somebody in as an employee.

 Amardeep Gill: Do they resonate with your values? You know, there's an investment there. Is it the right investment just because you're on a massive growth journey or have these aspirations going for the first person that comes along to kind of tick the boxes? Um, it's not the right, it's like we talked about. It's a bit like a marriage.

 Amardeep Gill: Any relationship of value needs to have the necessary due diligence. Any relationship that you're entering into, do your due diligence. I know that I meet some people and they say I'm completely guided by the gut. And I respect that. You know, there has to be [00:21:00] a degree of humanity in any of the decisions that we make.

 Amardeep Gill: But if that person has got bankruptcy. You know, findings against them. They've had businesses going to insolvency. It doesn't matter how great you think they are. You know, do they have the acumen to deliver what it is that you want to deliver? Are they worth your investment? Are they worth your time? So I think they're the kind of broader things.

 Amardeep Gill: I really kind of pick people up on,on that journey. You know, you actually should be sacrosanct and any relationship that you're entering into. Is it the right one for you at this moment in time? Be that with people you're bringing into the business, be that people that you want to invest in your organization, especially when you're looking for capital to grow.

 Amardeep Gill: Has the person that you're having a conversation with got the same value set as you? Um, and also any partners that you're entering into from an, from a growth perspective, are they the right partner for you? Do they have the right, the right branding? Do they have the right market? Um, Uh, kind of positioning [00:22:00] that would value your growth journey as well.

 Amardeep Gill: And it's all about making the right decisions that you can never make the right decision a hundred percent of the time. But if you don't think about this and give it requisite, you know,  importance, then it will all unravel and it's much harder to unravel something rather than actually do the due diligence and get it right at the outset.

Amardeep Parmar:Yeah,  absolutely. Almost like you said, the honeymoon period at the beginning, if you think about marriage for a co founder. The honeymoon period, you think, Oh, they're amazing, but it's like often you don't realize the flaws in people until you've been with them for quite a long time. And obviously some people are very good at selling their skills and what they're able to do rather than actually doing it.

Amardeep Parmar: And that's, it's always really good to be careful. And even when you're hiring for a startup as well, it's so easy to be drawn in by someone's charisma or someone's abilities to sell themselves without really knowing how good their actual work is. But one of the things I know you do in that kind of space too, is your mentoring side of things.

Amardeep Parmar: And I'd love for you to share a bit more about what you do there.

 Amardeep Gill: I ended up doing a lot of mentoring actually, and I really wanted to do it properly. So I [00:23:00] qualified as an integrative coach. I went away for a couple of years and did, um, kind of study on how to support people and hold space for them. And part of that is helping them understand what their attributes are.

 Amardeep Gill: You cannot relate to somebody else without really knowing. How it is you relate, you know, what is it that kind of drives you, what's your story, what makes you tick? What are your insecurities? What is it that you're trying to prove to yourself and the world? And actually really helping people to understand that.

 Amardeep Gill: Inner dialogue, the inner narrative that's going on from that, that then helps them show up in a much broader way. So when I'm mentoring people, often the first few conversations, if they're not a client already, is really getting to know their story, getting to know what they're all about and being in listening mode.

 Amardeep Gill: And then reflecting back to them what I think I've heard, and it's often not what they intended me to hear. And so, you know, having the ability to, to kind of [00:24:00] look beyond the words, um, and see who it is that I'm actually talking to, I think is a real skill. So I think from that coaching and mentoring perspective, it's fundamental for me to support that person

 Amardeep Gill: in terms of understanding what makes them tick and why certain situations will be massively frustrating for them. Certain situations will be massively energizing for them. And certain situations are necessary evils that they need to undertake. Um, and helping them understand, not telling them, helping them understand what it is that they will experience on that journey.

Amardeep Parmar: And you think that made you a better lawyer as well, that experience? 

 Amardeep Gill: I think without a shadow of a doubt, because whatever you're doing, It's all about how you relate. It's all about how you connect with somebody. And we often overlook that. We often overlook just how important it is to be able to hold a conversation, to be able to hold eye contact, to be able to gesticulate in the right way, [00:25:00] ask the right questions, because that that

 Amardeep Gill: put my coach,  calls it humaning, but you know, it's, it's that ability to connect. And it has made me a much better lawyer. It's made me able to have conversations that are quite difficult to have in a, in a fairly, uh, managed and un-aggressive way. Um, notwithstanding how difficult that conversation is in that moment in time.

 Amardeep Gill: And I get a real value out of it. Um, and my clients get real value out of it as well. You know, there's a, there's a mutuality to that and it engenders loyalty. You know, I've got your back, um, not only from a legal perspective, but from your growth, your own personal growth perspective. Um, and. And, you know, that, that makes that relationship much closer.

Amardeep Parmar: So  even what you just mentioned there about eye contact and very good tone of voice, for example, I've sat in this chair a lot of times now and you notice that when I'm talking to different people, some of them will be, we're having a conversation like this, but their eyes are looking at the floor, looking up at the ceiling where they find it [00:26:00] hard to communicate, but also engage the purpose.

Amardeep Parmar: Like I'm literally just sitting here a meter away from you, but they get their nervousness or whatever it is. And they find it difficult to really show that. I was just thinking across from you, most of the time you're making eye contact. And when you've been thinking, you look up and then you make eye contact again.

Amardeep Parmar: And it does come across like just in this one conversation. I can see that element of you having worked on that. It, I say you haven't worked on it, but it comes across very naturally of being welcoming of listening. Like as you talk, as I'm talking right now, you're looking directly at me. You're not thinking about what you might be thinking about what you're having for lunch, but it's not obvious on your face.

Amardeep Parmar: Right. And that's a real skill, which I think is so underrated and it doesn't matter what you do that being able to engage with people and talk to people and make them feel like you're listening and engaging is really important. But we're going to have to move to the quick fire questions now. 

 Amardeep Gill: Okay. 

Amardeep Parmar: So first one is who are free British Asians you'd love to spotlight you think you're doing incredible work? 

 Amardeep Gill: So, um, Sharonjit Claire, who is the chair of the West Midlands, [00:27:00] uh, race quality task force, um, challenging has had, um, huge experience in the financial sector. It's bringing all of that. Um, to her new role as the Equality Task Force lead to, to make sure that there is parity and equality for everyone, um, regardless of background, regardless of gender or sexual identity, what any of that, she's doing some amazing work.

 Amardeep Gill: I've got, I'm hugely proud of what she's doing. She's super humble with her. Um, and I wish her nothing but absolute success. So Sharonjit Claire, um, good luck Sharonjit. 

Amardeep Parmar: Two more. 

 Amardeep Gill: So the second one would be Professor Prashant Pillai, who is, um, the lead cyber, uh, leader at Wolverhampton University.

 Amardeep Gill: Prashant has got huge knowledge, both in cyber, um, uh, and general technology, um, issues has just been awarded, um, uh, his OBE, um, and. It's just the most humble, caring, um, man I've had the pleasure to meet [00:28:00] with the sharpest brain. Um, and, you know, he's doing great things and is making waves in that sector. Um, and, you know, he's, he's an inspiration to be around.

 Amardeep Gill: And then finally, um, Jasper Rye of Swift Scale, um, family to me. So of course I would mention him, but you know, he's got some real, um, drive in him. And not only is he driven, but he really wants to make a difference. And when you see somebody at that point in their career, putting all that effort in and really driving themselves forward, you know, what is there not to love?

Amardeep Parmar: So I don't know the first two, but I can vouch for Jasper as well. So Jasper was obviously the person who put us in touch in the first place. And he's just a massive supporter for everything we're doing and he always messaged us like, Oh, is there anything I can help with? And it's just, you can tell it's very authentic, the way he goes about everything, the way he engages with people.

Amardeep Parmar: Just such a good, like hearted person. So massive shout out to Jasper as well for us as well. So next question is if [00:29:00] people want to find out more about you, more about Trowers and Hamlin. Where should they go to? 

 Amardeep Gill: So, um, Amardeep Gill, Trowers and Hamlin's, um, LinkedIn, where we've got our own website pages.

 Amardeep Gill: I'm also on X, formerly Twitter. Um, and, you know, reach out, drop me an email. Let's send me a message on LinkedIn. Always happy to have a conversation. Always happy to support. I think, you know, it, there isn't any agenda there. It is actually, I want to hear your story because it's important. You're important.

 Amardeep Gill: So yeah, um, LinkedIn, Twitter, Trowers and Hamlin's, um, headquartered just around the corner in Moorgate, um, I've been there nearly 20 years, so, you know, um, 10 years in London, 10 years in Birmingham, um, and now sharing my time between the two, um, get in touch. 

Amardeep Parmar: And then if anybody listening right now might be able to help you.

Amardeep Parmar: Is it that you need help with? 

 Amardeep Gill: So, you know, always great to meet entrepreneurs. Um, always great to actually have conversations. So if there's a, there, there's a gathering, [00:30:00] um, the ability to kind of reach out to people, let me know. I'm always interested in finding new networks to network into. And it's really important to do that without expectation.

 Amardeep Gill: You know, you sow your seeds and they will either grow. Um, and if they do grow. Um, it may be two, three years down the line, you know, it's all about relationship building, never underestimate the power of the network. 

Amardeep Parmar: So thank you so much again for coming on and thank you again so much for supporting us in the early days as well.

Amardeep Parmar: Have you got any final words to the audience? 

 Amardeep Gill: Um, I think what you're doing is, is amazing. I wish you every success with it. It's an absolute pleasure to support. Um, and you know, keep on doing what you're doing. You're making a difference and you're talking about an agenda that I think has been there for a very long time, but hasn't had a shape, hasn't had advocates for it.

 Amardeep Gill: Uh, and to advocate for it is a really powerful thing because when you role model, when you talk about it, you inspire others. So keep inspiring others. 

Amardeep Parmar:Thank you.

Amardeep Parmar: Hello. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. It means a [00:31:00] huge amount to us. And we don't think you realize how important you are, because if you subscribe to our YouTube channel, if you leave us a five star review, it makes a world of difference. And if you believe in what we're trying to do here to inspire, connect and guide the next generation of British Asians, if you do those things, you can help us achieve that mission and you can help us make a bigger impact.

Amardeep Parmar: And by doing that, it means we can get bigger guests. We can host more events. We can do more for the community. So you can play a huge part. So thank you so much for supporting us.

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