Meet the Founder Commercialising Cutting Edge Quantum Communications Wenmiao Yu | Quantum Dice

00:00
Wenmiao Yu
So at Quantum Dice we use Quantum mechanics to generate true random numbers. So essentially what we do is we take lasers and a Bing splitter to generate the randomness.

00:09
Amardeep Parmar
Meet Wenmiao Yu, co founder of Quantum Dice. It's an Oxford University spin out making waves in Quantum.

00:15
Wenmiao Yu
So I think it was really the technology and the market potential that brought us together. When were raising our first round there were a lot of questions about, you know, the five person co founding team.

00:24
Amardeep Parmar
The team has been together for five years and when Mia said to overcome some terrible lows during that time.

00:30
Wenmiao Yu
There was probably just a few weeks where I received in total nearly 100 rejections. I think in the early stages I would always question, you know, am I fit to be a founder in this particular space?

00:41
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah, she found strength.

00:42
Wenmiao Yu
I actually think the more rejections I had, the less of a negative impact they had on me. I felt like there's something to be learnt from every rejection.

00:52
Amardeep Parmar
Quantum Dice is very significant funding.

00:54
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah. So we've had a mix of grant funding, angel funding and also VC funding. And I think our next focus would be our series A fundraiser.

01:02
Amardeep Parmar
Learn how Wenmiao has built cutting edge technology into a real commercial model.

01:07
Wenmiao Yu
Quantum Dice is actually to turn this PhD's research, this tabletop experiment and package it into a product that can be used into existing security systems. When I was younger I used to love reading and my dream job growing up was actually to become an author. But I actually realised whilst growing up that in order to be an author I needed to have, you know, had a lot of good life experiences, good ones, mad ones, challenging ones. And I think that's what I've been able to have so far with my company Quantum Dose. And yeah, really excited about where that takes me into the future.

01:43
Amardeep Parmar
And then when you thought about studying, where did you go to study at university? Was it related to that or was it something completely different?

01:48
Wenmiao Yu
Well, I think I took a really pragmatic approach to studying. I did all sciences and maths at A levels and I really wanted to have this kind of like Oxford or Cambridge experience because I really wanted to have this tutorial system to also study in very historic settings. And I saw that with my A levels the most, I guess streamlined application process would be to study chemistry because it's the only one where you at the time didn't need to do, where you didn't need to do another exam for. So I decided to study chemistry, applied for that and was really fortunate to have gotten in. But it was actually during university when I was, you know, trying different internships, but I slowly worked out exactly what career I wanted to do. And for me it wasn't a really kind of obvious choice.

02:33
Wenmiao Yu
So I actually started off my first year doing this R and D internship in a university's biochemistry department. Super interesting, really interesting people in Singapore as well. So I was working in a different culture, but I actually realised quite quickly that I didn't want to stay in research, but I still wanted to work alongside people who are really at the cutting edge of developing new technologies. And then in my second year, I did a patent attorney's internship. And this is quite pivotal because it was here that I actually, you know, first started learning about the process of how can you take new science innovation that's being developed in universities or research organisations and almost commercialise that into a product that can be of use to society?

03:14
Wenmiao Yu
And then so after that I decided in my third year to see what working in a larger company would be like. So that's when I applied to do an internship in digital procurement at Centrica. I realised that I wanted to work for a smaller team or within a smaller organisation when I first graduated because I wanted to have more exposure to different areas of work and I said to have more responsibility earlier on and then. So I kind of entered my fourth year, which was my last year of university, having tried different careers and also decided that I wanted to work where business meets technology, but not really have a set idea on where I wanted to end up.

03:50
Wenmiao Yu
And at the time, a lot of my friends were kind of in the west coast of the US doing their degrees and I just kept hearing about this really vibrant startup ecosystem there and I just really kept an eye open for opportunities to be able to in the UK and also in Oxford in my university. And really fortunately in my last term, Oxford ran the first ever student entrepreneurs programme. So here it was four weeks long. They opened up their IP portfolio and kind of reverse pitched different IPs to students across all disciplines in order for them to find a team and also to create this initial business plan for a particular piece of technology. So for me, I chose to work with this Quantum random number generation. So technology.

04:31
Amardeep Parmar
What made you pick that?

04:32
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, yeah. So I decided to choose that because when I was studying chemistry we had quite a substantial course in Quantum mechanics and I actually also voluntarily chose to do a supplementary exam and course on Quantum chemistry. So for me it was just quite interesting. And also I think the potential applications in cybersecurity, it has both technology but also societal Impacts and benefits from enhancing our current. From enhancing our current abilities. So that's why I decided to choose that and luckily was able to meet my co founders there. And yeah, the rest we just took step by step.

05:06
Amardeep Parmar
So for people who don't understand what Quantum actually is in your situation as well, could you explain what the technology does at Quantum Dice?

05:13
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, sure. So at Quantum Dice, we use Quantum mechanics to generate true random numbers. And essentially Quantum is anything that's to do with light, and a unit of light that it can be measured in is a photon. So essentially what we do is we take lasers and a beam splitter and we use the fundamentally statistical nature of light to generate the randomness. And what we have done at Quantum Dice is actually to turn this PhD's research, this tabletop experiment, and package it into a product that can be used into existing security systems.

05:46
Amardeep Parmar
And when you're joining that team, because you said you've joined co founders, right, and it's somebody's PhD research, how did you go about deciding the team dynamics and whether or not you were going to be able to work together? Because you've obviously been going for quite some time now, so you've been able to build a good relationship. What did you look for in the team and how did you guys understand that you're going to be able to work together longer term?

06:08
Wenmiao Yu
Well, essentially how a team formed was the PhD who actually created the technology wasn't involved at all because he wanted to go straight into industry. And the rest of my co founders, we all kind of formed this team because we all chose the technology first. So I think it was really the technology and the market potential that brought us together. And luckily for the team, we had two physics PhDs who actually worked in the lab that was next door to the PhD who actually developed this core technology. So they kind of have that scientific knowledge to be able to, you know, take the product forwards. And my other two co founders came from a kind of material science and also maths background.

06:45
Wenmiao Yu
But I think my similarities to them were that us three were always super interested in commercialization and in marketing and then also in business development. And that's how we started. I think in the really early days, it really was quite loosely structured. So in the early days, before we had our first round of investment, everyone kind of did a bit of everything. So everyone did market research, et cetera. And then I think we slowly figured out what type of tasks we like doing and what type of projects we like doing. And I think looking back, it's both a pro and a. So I think my co founders and I are all very different people, so we have different personalities and just different natural interests.

07:24
Wenmiao Yu
And at the beginning it did mean that we just have to spend a lot of time, you know, trying to understand where each other's, where each other is coming from and also understand how different people like to work. And in a way, Covid both helped and also hindered that in a certain way. I think, you know, being able to work together in person always provides more natural chemistry between the team, which is really good.

07:46
Wenmiao Yu
But because we couldn't control our external factors, most of our pre first round of fundraising work was actually done remotely in lockdown and that gave us a lot of focus and we had weekly meetings and I think it just gave a lot of us a lot of structure in our day to day and were free from distractions and were able to just focus on the work, but also just have that really constant regular contact over Covid, which really, I think builds a bond that is quite difficult to replace.

08:15
Amardeep Parmar
And you said there about how you've been able to build that relationship over time and the weekly meetings, for example, helped. If people are listening right now, they're coming together with new co founding team and they're trying to make sure that they build a good relationship as well. Do you have any advice for them?

08:28
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, I think really take time to get to know your potential co founders and also look for people who are probably a bit different to you because then you can avoid groupthink and you can have just very different views to analyse the problem when they do come up and then it can lead to better solutions later on. I think growing up at university, I think friendship groups they normally form between people who get along really well because they are very similar, which is great. But I think in business, when it's building a company, you need different skill sets and different worldviews. I think that's something that's quite important to consciously look out for.

09:03
Amardeep Parmar
And you mentioned about how as you've been working on the project and at the beginning you're doing everything together, then you said you've worked out what you enjoy the most, what is it that you enjoy the most? Which bit did you want to specialise in?

09:14
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, so for me it's about kind of creating a team and I say creating a market. And I think very fortunately I've been able to have a lot of challenges and opportunities to do that. So I think because we are building a Quantum enabled company. Although we can sell to, you know, existing cybersecurity suppliers as well. A lot of our work is actually spent educating potential buyers or large enterprise innovators about what Quantum technologies means for their particular business. This unit, and this is such a nascent industry that there's no playbook to follow. So we really have to just work things out for ourselves.

09:49
Wenmiao Yu
And I really enjoy looking back, being able to create just effective pieces of communication like written or verbal, that can tell someone who works in a business unit exactly what value they would have in using Quantum technologies and then also then working with them to understand how they can best present this to their own internal stakeholders to get the project more follow through. And I think another part of the work, because Quantum is so new, a lot of the industry groups are just being set up and for me it's really been a privilege to be part of the founding members of the Quantum Business Innovation and Growth Group at the Institute of Physics. And there I get to interact with people outside of my company.

10:29
Wenmiao Yu
And I think that's super important because in a startup, you know, you're very focused and sometimes it's refreshing and quite valuable in terms of a learning perspective to be able to speak to other startup founders or people in larger mature organisations who are looking into Quantum so that, you know, it helps me to understand how they think and also what value of Quantum tech is.

10:50
Amardeep Parmar
How do you think being able to learn to make your messaging more effective over time? Because obviously you're going to be trying out different things at the beginning. How do you talk to enterprises? And as you talk to more and more enterprises, you obviously must get a knack of, okay, when I talk in this way, when I explain things in this way, that really helps. So how do you feel like that messaging has changed over time?

11:08
Wenmiao Yu
I think the messaging has changed over time in terms of what metrics we use to present business value for the different enterprise users. Because for someone working in telcos, their business value, the value that they can get from our technology or our solution could be different to what someone working in a bank like HSBC would get from using our solution. So it's really working with those individual accounts to understand where they want to use our technology, help them to analyse outcomes from that and then help them to move it forward. And I think one common thing that I've learned over all the different activities is actually spend much more time listening to potential clients than talking because they tell you so much about what their actual challenges are.

11:53
Wenmiao Yu
And then it, I think for me it helps me to understand, you know, how to then design like a project that will make them achieve their own goals as well. Or, you know, if sometimes, if now isn't the right time for their companies to be adopting Quantum technologies, then it's in both of our, both are benefits to have made that connection, but then to not spend much more time working on it until the right moment comes. So it saves for the startup time as well.

12:19
Amardeep Parmar
And I think with Quantum, sometimes people can be quite intimidated by it as a new technology and for some people it's oh, that's five years away, 10 years away. Whereas obviously there's so much happening right now. And when you're talking to different enterprises and potential customers, have you found that as a potential issue of how to educate them about where the market currently is and for them to understand about how it affects them in the near future?

12:42
Wenmiao Yu
That's a really good question. So last week I was at Mobile World Congress and this is probably one of the most common questions that we had asked at our stand. I think that the conversation and the nuances have really developed since we first came together as a team in 2019. Back then, whenever we talked about Quantum, I think the only technology that would spring to mind would be Quantum computing, which, fair enough, gets a lot of publicity. It's great, has a lot of potential, but it isn't the entirety of the Quantum technologies family. So for me I'd view Quantum technologies as a family of three main branches. Quantum computing, Quantum sensing and also Quantum communications, which is where we would fit in.

13:21
Wenmiao Yu
And I think there are kind of like larger system level solutions like Quantum computers or smaller component level solutions that was enabled by the really fundamental core principles of Quantum mechanics, which is where our QRNG fits in.

13:35
Amardeep Parmar
And you mentioned before about how you had a lot of friends in Silicon Valley and the west coast all working on startups, exciting things. Whereas obviously because you spun out of Oxford University then you've had such great minds working on this project. How do you feel like the Quantum landscape is at the moment in terms of where a lot of the innovation is happening? And because we've probably seen in the news where a lot of people are now talking bad, we come to UK and all these different things was actually there's so much innovation happening and how has been that situation for you guys in terms of you building here and having so much focus on the UK, how has that dynamic been in the Quantum space? Is the UK at the forefront or where does the UK stand in that respect?

14:15
Wenmiao Yu
I think the UK is Definitely one of the top players in Quantum in terms of technology and converting new innovation into technology. Because Quantum is very much hardware driven and I so fundamentally research driven for the past maybe 10, 15 years, a lot of collaboration in terms of funding and other recent resources was needed to have had between the government and the research institutions and the companies in each country to really move that technology along.

14:45
Wenmiao Yu
And I think in the UK we actually really benefited from having I guess quite far sighted people in government who decided, you know, I think it was back in 2014 perhaps to have that first wave of the UK's Quantum technologies programme where the government kind of invested grant funding into core Quantum technology development that both startups and also universities could apply for to really develop that first generation of Quantum technologies. And now we're kind of in the second phase of that. It's great, but I think when you look at how that it's changed between the first phase and the second phase. First phase is much more research driven. Second phase, there's a lot more grants for companies, startups or just SMEs to do collaborative R and D with large enterprise buyers to productize those technologies and.

15:33
Amardeep Parmar
With your own mix of funding. So there's some grant funding, how have you been able to raise the funding to make what you're doing possible?

15:40
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, so we've had a mix of grant funding, angel funding and also VC funding. The first grant that we had was actually a EPSRC funded fellowship. So it covered salaries for myself and one of my co founders, George, for and then was 18 months as well as the business development and product development grant or actually free. And it brought us into this Quantum innovators ecosystem in the uk. Super helpful because they had a lot of the deep tech investors in that system and also a lot of the companies who back then have indicated that they were interested in trialling new Quantum technologies. So it's good from a point of view.

16:17
Wenmiao Yu
And then from then were brought into an Invit UK fund which is led by the UK's National Physical Laboratory and they were doing a project to kind of like assure QRNGs versus existing RNGs. So almost like a benchmarking and assurance project. And that kind of taught us how to write innovate UK grants which we then kind of made full advantage of by applying for several more and also being able to receive those grants. And it was actually off the back of that first grant that we then secured our first round of VC funding. And since then we've done a couple more rounds and I think Our next focus would be our series A Fundraise.

16:55
Amardeep Parmar
Hello. Hello. Quick interruption to let you know about BAE HQ. We're the community for high growth British Asian entrepreneurs, operators and investors. And you can join completely free at thebaehq.com/join there you get our CEO pillars, sets, content, events and opportunities direct to your inbox every week so you can get involved and it can help you to further your business and your career. We also have a free startup course called BAE Startup Foundations where if you think about starting a business someday or at the early stages, it gives you all that information to help you hit the ground running and to thrive in this new world. Back to the show and how has that experience been with VC space? Because again, especially with hardware is often considered more difficult to raise for. How has your experience been with that?

17:43
Amardeep Parmar
When you're talking to investors, did they tend to get what you were doing or did you have to work quite hard there?

17:49
Wenmiao Yu
So when were doing our first Fundraise back in 2020, I think I reached out to about over 100 different VCs globally and I think out of those only two that we reached out to already had a Quantum investment thesis. One was in Singapore, one was in the us. But since then I think more Quantum specific VC firms have run up or at least VC firms invested into deep tech have developed their own Quantum technolog like investment strategy. So that's good reflections on fundraise process. I think the main takeaway was we realised very quickly that there's a difference between VCs that invest into deep tech versus software and much less VCs who have a hardware based investment focus than those who invest into deep tech software. So that's challenging.

18:34
Wenmiao Yu
And then I think in terms of Quantum, there's just a very close kind of like synergy between VC investment and also government investment into Quantum. So I think within our industry you do see quite a lot of Quantum companies that have benefited from both having like government grants for government related projects as well as VC investments.

18:53
Amardeep Parmar
And you mentioned too about how the commercialization aspect, right. So how did you go about working? So you've got this technology, you know it's innovative, you know it's going to have good different functions. How do you then work out? Okay, how do you get revenue from this? And was there different that you tried that maybe didn't work out? And could you talk us through that journey?

19:12
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, for sure. So for us in defining where the market and the first application is, we made a conscious decision early on to only focus on the cybersecurity application first rather than doing cybersecurity analysis simulations. Because we knew that as a startup we needed to be focused and really demonstrate evidence and value in one area before then branching out. So we spent a lot of the early days focusing on reaching out to both system integrators that would build using QRNG solutions as well as their end users who would potentially want this Quantum enhanced version of say like a larger hardware security module. So we really just mapped out that entire kind of like ecosystem and just reached out to people and really leveraged our networks in the UK from the university, from our mentors to get the most formant introductions possible.

19:59
Wenmiao Yu
And then I think last year we completed a project, the first project where we looked at using Q and simulations so in how Q&GS can enhance mitochondrial simulations. And this was led by my co founder Jeanette and she worked very closely with HSBC on the ISOVA Hartree Research Centre. And we're able to demonstrate like a clear benefit of using Quantum random numbers versus existing RMGs in certain types of Monte Carlo simulations. So then we've kind of started that market exploration process as well. I think looking forward we're still going to keep that kind of focused approach when we do want to enter new markets.

20:36
Wenmiao Yu
But at the same time I think we also realised that because the Quantum industry is still quite small at the moment, we need to set ourselves up ready to be like a global player in order to set up most partnerships at this stage so that our products gets designed into systems no matter where they are in the world.

20:56
Amardeep Parmar
Where's your global footprint at the moment? Are you primarily UK based projects or what's the.

21:02
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, so we are UK, Singapore and also us at the moment.

21:06
Amardeep Parmar
And how do you find it in terms of splitting your attention, your time across those different geographies and how have you been able to handle that effectively?

21:14
Wenmiao Yu
I think having a large co founding team really helps, honestly. When were raising our first round there were a lot of questions about the five person co founding team. But I think we think been together for nearly, I think over five years now as five co founders and we all still work together. So I think that's really a testament of the drive that everyone has in making this startup a success and also in being able to share responsibilities between us. So for example, I mentioned I was at a conference last week and this week one of my other team members will be at another conference. So it's just really making sure that we have the manpower to keep things churning over time.

21:53
Amardeep Parmar
And obviously you said like you've been together for five years now. How's that journey been for you? What view, how has your role changed and what do you enjoy more now than maybe you did before or how's your thoughts about the company relationship changed?

22:06
Wenmiao Yu
I think now we're definitely more structured as a company and I think there's probably a bit more effort in deciding how to design processes and structures into the company so that other people can, you know, also contribute to the workflow and not just have it in the hands of the founders, which is super critical because we want to grow as a company. And I think a lot of it's actually finding and building relationships with the right people to bring into a Quantum Dice team. I think looking back, one of the most valuable relationships that I think I have had is actually with our commercial advisor who's been with us from even before we raised our first round of funding.

22:47
Wenmiao Yu
And he's been just quite instrumental in being a good sounding board for myself and my co founders, who are all first time founders on business related activities, operational activities and also market development activities. And I hope that he has infused our team enough with just his very far sighted view to how to solve problems.

23:10
Amardeep Parmar
And then what are you most proud of at the moment? So in the five years of Quantum Dice, what's those moments that really stand out to you?

23:17
Wenmiao Yu
Can I only pick one moment?

23:19
Amardeep Parmar
Moments, you can go full?

23:20
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah, okay, perfect. I think for me one of the key moments is actually seeing the culmination of some demo work that we've done with AT&T in which we showcased that Mobile World Congress and BUS in Barcelona last week. This was nearly two years worth of work and it really was satisfying to see our product being used in a demo of a Quantum safe VPN that their team have built and to be able to talk about this to people at the conference too. So it just really is like another step forward in terms of QuantumVice as a team of co founders commercialising the QRNG technology and finding a use case for it.

24:01
Wenmiao Yu
The other is actually just turning up to our monthly kind of like team congresses where everyone gathers and seeing how much the team has grown and also seeing how many familiar faces there are because a lot of our early employees are still with us. And yeah, I think all of our success is a testament to their work.

24:17
Amardeep Parmar
So what we're doing now is were 200 episodes in, so we're saying to people once it's 200 episodes since their last episode we get them on again to talk about what progress they've made since and it'll be about two years time. So if we're sitting here again in two years time, what would you love to share as like, this is the next win you've had or the biggest win you've had in the last. In the next two years.

24:38
Wenmiao Yu
So I think the biggest win would be converting our existing kind of like paid pilots or POCs into just contracts with enterprises and also perhaps having Quantum Dice in another country outside of the UK.

24:55
Amardeep Parmar
And longer term, what's the ultimate dream for Quantum Dice?

24:59
Wenmiao Yu
I think we want to be a company that's driven by innovation and right now I know our engineering team are working on a new technology innovation that we're hoping to bring to a market too.

25:10
Amardeep Parmar
And people are going to be following your story in the future. What should they be looking out for? What exciting stuff is coming up?

25:16
Wenmiao Yu
I think keep up with me on LinkedIn and keep up with Quantum Dice. On LinkedIn. We have quite a strong presence in the university community. So, for example, we had a huge number of applicants for our summer internship for this year and I encourage people to keep an eye out on those too. We're quite keen to help develop and give opportunities to the workforce that's going to be needed for Quantum technologies.

25:45
Amardeep Parmar
One of the questions obviously, as you spun out of a university, how has that relationship been with the university and how if people listening right now may be at a university or they're trying to commercialise technology to be at university, what advice would you have for managing that relationship?

26:02
Wenmiao Yu
I think just understanding where your stakeholders in the university are coming from and also keeping an eye out for kind of like equity free grant funding opportunities, especially if you're building hardware so that you can further develop your product or further develop your commercial value before going out to race for VC funding.

26:24
Amardeep Parmar
So obviously you did this straight out of university. Right. Has there been anything that's been harder than you expected? Or again, you could give some advice for people who maybe are going into starting a company before having worked longer term somewhere else. What advice would you give somebody now listening who's in that position where again, they could be going straight into building their own company?

26:45
Wenmiao Yu
So probably the same advice that one of my mentors gave me at the start, which is, remember that building a company is a narrow plan, not a sprint, and schedule breaks in because you will need them and you actually find the breaks quite productive for the more creative processes.

27:00
Amardeep Parmar
Okay, so we're going to jump to the quick fire questions now. So the first one is, who are three people of Asian heritage in the UK that you think are doing incredible work and you'd love to shout them out?

27:11
Wenmiao Yu
So I think the first two would be Kylin and Bhavy from Hippos. They are a super cool startup in the uk. They're ordering air bikes for your knees, so they help to prevent knee injuries for professional athletes. And the second is actually a woman that I've admired for a long time called Cindy Gallop. She is very cool, has a marketing background and it's just a very strong champion for women. Building new ways to provide entertainment value. Yeah. For consumers of all kind of backgrounds.

27:42
Amardeep Parmar
And if people want to find out more about you and what you're up to, where should I go to?

27:45
Wenmiao Yu
I'm on LinkedIn, Wenmiao Yu. And that's where I will be.

27:48
Amardeep Parmar
And if people listening right now could potentially help you or help Quantum Dice, what should they get in touch about?

27:53
Wenmiao Yu
They can reach out if they're interested in learning more about Quantum technologies. I also volunteer as a mental health ambassador. So my own entrepreneurship journey kind of ran alongside my own mental health awareness journey. And I'm very keen to speak to people who have had, you know, lows in their life that have motivated them to create something of value.

28:14
Amardeep Parmar
So let's just jump into that a little bit more, as you mentioned there, about the lows along the journey. And I also know, like mental health awareness is such a big point for you as well. Can you talk us through that?

28:24
Wenmiao Yu
Yep. So I think for me the lowest point that I was over Covid. We were in the midst of our first fundraise. We were a bunch of first time founders or university students with no industrial experience. And I think there was probably just a few weeks where I received in total nearly a hundred rejections. And I know as a founder you're not meant to take it personally, but as a young first time founder, I did.

28:49
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah.

28:50
Wenmiao Yu
And I think that was the low. That was the lowest point that I did have. And I think in the early stages I would always crash. Am I fit to be a founder in this particular space? And what I realise now looking back is actually it doesn't matter if that question comes into my head and it's okay. And it's natural to be insecure, to have doubts, but it's actually what I chose to do with it afterwards. So every time I had a doubt, I must have just made a decision to continue, which is what I did. And I'm glad that I did.

29:23
Wenmiao Yu
So I think for me, looking back, I think if I spoke to my younger self, I would tell her to feel better and not stress out too much about feeling doubt or uncertainty because I don't need to know everything at once at the same time, but to just keep making small steps and just remembering, as my mentor said, that building a company is a natural.

29:47
Amardeep Parmar
You mentioned your mentor a couple times then. Do you want to give them a shout out as well?

29:51
Wenmiao Yu
Yeah. So I actually have two. One is a lady called Jane who I met at the Quantum Technologies Enterprise Centre. She is an exited founder, built her own kind of technology company and she now has retired to Australia. So sadly I didn't get to see her as much. But she really was a person that kind of saw potential in me to be a founder and really pushed me towards that. That and the other is our commercial advisor, Graham. He is great. He kind of started working with me and kind of helping to advise him a company shortly after he retired from BT. And I think having him there, like, and I'm not sure if he knows this, but we have fortnightly caused and he's been there when, you know, potential projects have fallen through or when we've had huge successes.

30:37
Wenmiao Yu
And I think having him there has just been quite a steadying force for myself and also for the company.

30:42
Amardeep Parmar
And you mentioned there about the rejection side of things. Right. And it's something which I think often is overlooked and I try and get people to talk about this from the podcast because otherwise when people talk about how perfect think is all the time, it's actually unrealistic and it's not reflective. Right. Whereas when you know, okay, this person is building a company, is doing really well now, but they had these rejections, it just normalises it. Right. And there was another founder actually in hardware who came on Kapowitzka and said they got 100 rejections before their first. Yes. And obviously you can take the small tips you can believe in yourself. Was anything else that just helped you get through those rejections and might help the audience too?

31:20
Wenmiao Yu
I actually think the more rejections I had, the less of a negative impact they had on me. And I think in hindsight I think that's a good thing because then I realised, you know, if you're rejected, it might just be that, you know, the investor or the potential client you're speaking to, maybe they just weren't the right fit for you at the time. And I feel like there's something to be learned from every rejection. But then it's just taking that learning and just using it to. When you reach out to someone the next time.

31:49
Amardeep Parmar
Yeah. And the hard thing is that especially at the beginning, right. You don't know if the rejection is because the idea is bad or if it's just, like you said, not the right person. And it's very easy. I think a natural human thing is you put it on yourself. Right. And you put it on the idea. When actually, like you said, there's so many people who had built things that are incredible now who didn't have that initial easy traction. And many of the ideas that change the world, they do seem crazy to people. Otherwise everybody would be doing it. Right. So I think it's really interesting to see that dynamic of how people deal with rejection. And it's a muscle that you get better at. Right?

32:22
Wenmiao Yu
I. I completely agree with you. I think it is a muscle that kind of like perseverance after having a rejection. Going back to your point about, you know, the seemingly crazy ideas and how it can be difficult to get traction in the beginning, I think that as a founder, you are essentially building a company based on a vision that you have. And it is a vision that you will have to bring other people into. But sometimes in the early stages, if it is too much of a leap, then you just have to be comfortable with converting people slowly but steadily.

32:53
Amardeep Parmar
So thanks so much for sharing the story today and like all of the information you've given as well, if you've got any final words for the audience?

33:01
Wenmiao Yu
I think just to say thank you for giving me the space and for creating this platform for kind of British Asian entrepreneurs to talk about their stories. I think, you know, you probably saw that it took me a while to think of the three role models who are British Asian that I look up to. And I just hope that we can help change this.

33:20
Amardeep Parmar
Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. See you next time. 

‍